House Select Committee on Assassinations Investigation of the Assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. Volume 1, pp. 166-349 Dan Rather/CBS News Interview of James Earl Ray -166-  [View JPEG scan of this page] CBS NEWS A Division of CBS Inc. 524 West 57 Street New York, NY 10019 (212) 975-2787 Robert Chandler, Vice President, Administration and Assistant to the President March 25, 1997 Dear Mr. Ray: Thank you for your letter requesting the unedited transcript of your interview with Dan Rather. I enclose a copy; I am unable to provide you with two copies, but you are free to duplicate it. Under our policy, we furnish unedited transcripts only to the subject of the interview, and I am therefore unable to comply with your request to furnish a copy to Mr. Lehner. We appreciate your having done the interview. Sincerely, [signature] Robert Chandler Mr. James Earl Ray Brushy Mountain State Penitentiary Petros, Tennessee 37845 MLK EXHIBIT F-25 -167-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SENSITIVE RESEARCH UNIT-MLK CONTROL COPY MARCH 9, 1977 CBS SPECIAL REPORTS INTERVIEW WITH JAMES EARL RAY - DAN RATHER SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 DAN RATHER: Mr. Ray, first in brief, if you would tell me a bit about your family. Where you grew up, how you grew up and how you first got in trouble with the law. JAMES EARL RAY: Uh.. Well I grew up most in Illinois. That was where I was born the State of Illinois. And, I think my first trouble with the law was in 1952, serious trouble. Q: How did you get into that trouble? JAMES EARL RAY: That was, I believe it was a robbery charge or something. Q: What I was looking for was some of the tone and texture of how you grew up as a boy. Now -168-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 Q CONTINUED: and how you think you first got into trouble. I mean, was it a case of coming from a family at the low end of the economic scale? Or you ran with companions who got in trouble? Or how did that go? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I don't know. That is difficult to explain. I couldn't really... I'm not sure the economic scale has much to do with it because if it did you probably would have... fifteen or twenty million penitentiary cell mates. I just couldn't answer that question. Q: And, you went to school for how long? JAMES EARL RAY: Possibly eight or nine years. Q: And then you've been in prison how many times? -169-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 JAMES EARL RAY: I believe about three or four times now. Q: That includes this present time? JAMES EARL RAY: That includes this time, yes. Q: Were the previous times all or nearly all on robbery charges? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, it was monetary gain but it wasn't much. There was no other... you are contrasting that to moral offenses something like that. It was all robbery charges, yes. Q: I see. What I would like to get you to do since I have never really heard your side of the story, is in so far as you can, take me from April, 1967 when you escaped from the Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City, until the -170-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: time you were arrested in London after the shooting of Martin Luther King. I would like for you to tell me your side of that story all the way through. JAMES EARL RAY: Well there are so many details. That would be hard. I could hit the highlights maybe and you could ask me certain specifics. Q: Fine. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I escaped in April 1967. And then I went to Chicago. I stayed there I believe it was two months and after I stayed there two months, established an identification and things like that. Residence ..I went to Canada. And I think I was up there about approximately... five or six weeks. Then I returned to the United States. And... -171-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 JAMES EARL RAY: of course, I was in Mexico and then in California five or six months. And, later I got arrested in England for these charges. Shooting Dr. King.    But, I am sure that is not what you want. You want some more specifics. Q: Well, we can talk about specifics but I just want to get a rough outline so when we ask specifics. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: People are watching maybe will be able to follow us. So, you escaped from the Jefferson City Missouri State Penitentiary April, 1967. JAMES EARL RAY: April, 1967. Q: Then you went to Chicago? -172-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 JAMES EARL RAY: Chicago, yes. Q: Then into Canada. JAMES EARL RAY: Into Canada. Q: Then came to the United States, Southern part of the United States? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Then went to Mexico? JAMES EARL RAY: Mexico, yes. Q: Came back to California. JAMES EARL RAY: California. -173-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 1 TAKE 1 Q: Made a trip or two to the South. JAMES EARL RAY: New Orleans, yes. Q: And then in April of 1968, about a year later, went back to Canada and from Canada on to England and on to Portugal? JAMES EARL RAY: That is correct. And then back to England. Q: Well, I am interested in as much detail as you can give me. Let's start with your first... when you escaped from the Missouri State Penitentiary and went to Chicago. What did you do in Chicago? JAMES EARL RAY: I worked in a restaurant there approximately two months, in Wineka, Illinois. And, it was my intention when I left the restaurant job -174-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: to go to Canada and stay there. And then I got... leading the cradle around. I guess it is the same story as usual. And I did return to the United States and from then on you more or less know what happened then. Q: Well, tell me about that. You went to Chicago and established your identification? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: A new identification. Under what name was that in Chicago? JAMES EARL RAY: That was in the name of John Ryans. Q: Then you went into Canada so your intention was to really stay in Canada and go on from there? -175-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Well, tell me what happened in Canada? That first time? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, when I first went there it was my intention to try to get a passport in some manner to get to Australia or to England or some English speaking country. But, that never did work out. They had some legality whereby you had to live there two years to establish a domicile. Then later on I met up with some people, I thought were possibly narcotic smugglers. I made a trip back into the United States. I made two trips back in the United States. And then, one thing let to another and consequently I got this charge against me which I'm incarcerated on now. -176-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Let's go back to that time in Canada. This would have been in what month of 1967? JAMES EARL RAY: I don't have all the exact dates. I have all in a safe deposit box. I could confirm them in court. But, I think it was approximately August or September, 1967. Q: All right. You are in Canada and your intention is to go from Canada to some place else in the world but, that doesn't quite work out. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, I checked through the travel agencies and things like that. But, instead of going there personally I checked by phone and I got... I got the correct information but I didn't get in depth. I found out later when I went there a second time that you could... you didn't have to have a two year domicile, you could have -177-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: someone do... or you could make a sworn statement about passports that way. Q: But, you didn't know that at the time? JAMES EARL RAY: I didn't know at that time. Q: That first time? Now, you said that you then made contact. This was in the summer. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: And early fall of 1967. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, yes. Q: That you made contact with a criminal element there. Can you tell me about that? -178-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Well, there is not too much to tell. I just... it was just what I considered some type of a smuggling operation or narcotics. I'm sure... the Attorney General referred to it in 1974 in the Memphis papers corpus. So, possibly the Justice Department would know more about it than I do. Especially you know, in depth. I just know alias' and things like that. And of course, I was using alias' myself. Q: You made a couple of trips across the border, the United States border from Canada? JAMES EARL RAY: Windsor, Canada, yes sir. Q: Were those smuggling trips? Mr. Ray? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I assume they was. Since I was paid for them I couldn't... they couldn't have been anything else, actually. -179-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: If I assume that those were dope smuggling trips would you argue with that? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I wouldn't argue with it, no sir. Q: Then you left Canada and went to the Southern part of the United States approximately when? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh... I would say that would be in probably October of 1967, or September. Q: Late fall or early winter of 1967? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: And, how and why did you go to.. was it to Atlanta or Birmingham at that time? JAMES EARL RAY: It was Birmingham, yes. -180-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: How and why did you go to Birmingham? From Canada that first trip? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh... well, to begin with, returning from Windsor, it was my impression whatever kind of situation I was involved in would be... that money wasn't primarily the problem. It was passport traveling. And I was under the impression that after these two or three border crossings, transactions, that I would get a certain amount of money. Not too much money but a passport. A forged passport. And that never did come about. Then later on I was told that maybe if we would go to try something else maybe Mexico or something, that then they could get the passport then. And, I was given a certain amount of money. I think, it wasn't a large amount. It was seventeen or eighteen hundred dollars. And then -181-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: I went to... the original agreement was to go to Mobile but I didn't want to go there. That was too small a town and besides that it's... I had some type of an allergy and I didn't want to go there. I had lived on the Gulf Coast before one time. So, I just suggested Birmingham and that was agreed on, I would go to Birmingham. Q: Being a more inland city and larger. JAMES EARL RAY: It was larger and you could get lost quite a bit easier. Q: Did the people you were working with at that time, the contacts you had made in Canada, indicate why they wanted you to go to Birmingham? JAMES EARL RAY: I assumed it was some type of... similar to Canada, smuggling operation. I didn't know. -182-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Actually when you are dealing with people outside the law you don't, you know, interrogate them too much, especially if they are furnishing the money. Why you pass interrogation up. Q: So, when you got to Birmingham what happened? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, at the time I got to Birmingham, I didn't meet an individual there. Later on the same one as in Canada and we purchased a car and it was not too much happened there. It was more or less just a... waiting game I guess you would call it. But, later on I... we had made arrangements to go to... I was supposed to go to New Orleans and pick up an individual but, when I got to... I think I got to Baton Rouge, Louisiana and I called a number and I was... it was... the meeting place had been changed to Mexico. So, I went to Mexico, bypassed New Orleans. -183-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: After we got to Mexico, then we... it was more or less the same thing as happened in Canada. The same thing all over again except that I think we took some stuff across you know, in a tire. Something like that. Q: Smuggled something from the United States into Mexico? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh, yes that is correct. CUT -184-  [View JPEG scan of this page] ROLL 2 SOUND 2 Q: I want to pick up the story in... we are now in later 1967. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that's correct. Q: And you drove from Birmingham to Baton Rouge, on into Mexico. JAMES EARL RAY: I'm not really positive about Baton Rouge but I think it was there. The reason I remember it somewhat at all I believe it is the State capitol. I have some recollection of seeing that. Q: But, you were smuggling something from the United States into Mexico? JAMES EARL RAY: I assume I was, yes. I don't have no proof but I assume one gives you something, money it is for some type of... -185-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Again, if I were to assume that was narcotics of some kind, would you argue with me? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. I don't believe you would smuggle narcotics into Mexico it probably would be something manufactured. Manufacturing products have a high resale value. I know if you buy a car in Mexico, I think it costs ten thousand dollars where up here it would cost three thousand five hundred. Q: I'm groping here but could it have been jewelry? JAMES EARL RAY: I always did assume that. But the investigator in the case he seen it was counterfeit money. So, take your choice I suppose. Q: Jewelry, or counterfeit money or perhaps both. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I don't know. Possible. -186-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Did you carry anything back by way of smuggling anything in on the trip? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I was alone that time. I didn't smuggle anything that time. Q: So, you're in Los Angeles. This is very late 1967. JAMES EARL RAY: I think I arrived there in November of 1967. Q: And, what happened in Los Angeles? JAMES EARL RAY: There was not too much happened there. I made several attempts to get various identification to get out of the United States though. I contacted the Coast Guard several times, trying to get merchant seaman papers. I think the Justice Department knows this because they have my phone records and -187-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: So, you are in Mexico and then what happened? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh.. well, I stayed there about six weeks I guess. Altogether but I never received any travel documents or anything. I was given some money and given an address to contact a party in case I wanted to. But, at that time, I never.. I didn't intend to get involved in any more of that unless it was absolutely you know, there was no other way to get the documents. So, I stayed there about six weeks and I made uh.. two or three efforts to go from Mexico to a foreign country. And, none of those turned out. So, then I returned to Los Angeles. And... Q: You drove to Los Angeles? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, from Mexico. From Mexico, yes. -188-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: then I think by and by I did contact this party in New Orleans and I made a trip there in December of 1967. And... I got the impression that there was prospects in it for something else. But, of course, this passport problem was getting kind of old but, at that time it was getting so it was money and passport again. I never had too much money at one time. I think two or three thousand dollars, plus the car. And, of course, I had made several attempts at Los Angeles to find employment but, at that time, I didn't have any social security card. I didn't want to use this other one I had done used because I believed the government checks on those cards every so often. So, uh... we finally did make some kind of arrangement down in New Orleans and... which was later on led me to go to Atlanta. -189-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: So you spent this time in Los Angeles. JAMES EARL RAY: I was there about five months, yes sir. Q: But, then re-established your contact in New Orleans, in the New Orleans area? JAMES EARL RAY: If my recollection is correct, they established contact with me through the general delivery in the post office, in Los Angeles because I remember I went down there once and... it has been quite awhile ago but I remember, I went down. They sent me downstairs for something, for a general delivery contact or something. Q: Uh huh. JAMES EARL RAY: But I don't... Q: These were the same people that you had met on your original trip to Canada when you fled from -190-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: Chicago to Canada. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, I never met with one individual except the once and that was in Mexico and he was driving the car. So, I don't know... he appeared to be a Latin type person. So, I don't know. Q: I obviously would like to talk about him but I would like to carry forward with the chronological order. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: So, after California then.. you went to Atlanta? This would have been in early 1968? JAMES EARL RAY: I believe that would have been about March of 1968 when I arrived there, yes. -191-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: And then what happened? You are now in Atlanta, March, 1968. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I think we can back up a bit. I originally went to... I was supposed to meet an individual in New Orleans. Well, he wasn't there and he was supposed to be and he had moved onto Birmingham. And, I was supposed to meet him in the restaurant, in a bar I had frequented before. And, I think when I got there he was going to Atlanta or somewheres. Let's see.. No, it originally was New Orleans when I was supposed to meet. He went to Birmingham. I met the individual in Birmingham. And I was late getting there or something. And then, we went from there to Atlanta and we rented a room in a kind of rundown neighborhood.. there. And, I was there... I believe I stayed there about -192-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: five days. Q: All right. And, after that what happened? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, after that I think he returned this individual. He was using a Latin name Raoul or something. I don't know his last name. Of course, I was using the... I have used so many I forgot which one I was using at the time. I think it was Gault, I believe. Q: Still Eric S. Gault wasn't it? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, I believe that is the one I was using at that time. And that is one he knew me under. And, then.. the story then, it wasn't too heavy a story but it was heavy enough for me, that we was going to get some weapons or something and take them into Mexico, somewheres and he wanted -193-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: me to check them out, in Atlanta. But, all my identification at that time was in Alabama so, uh... I never had purchased any weapons in sporting goods stores or anything. Mostly professional criminals they buy weapons off a fence. They never guy them from... legally you know. So, I suggested that maybe we ought to go to Birmingham because I thought if they asked for identification out of State they would wonder how come I wasn't buying weapons in you know, Birmingham. Q: And, you had an Alabama driver's license at that time? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, at that time yes. So then we went onto -194-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Birmingham and to check on these various weapons. Rifle, and that is where the rifle come in at. And, the individual asked me not only to check on the rifle but various army surplus rifles. Q: This is this man you knew as Raoul? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. And I did check on the various surplus rifles. I think I handled a bunch of them and I suppose the FBI has my prints off those rifles. And so, I purchased one of these rifles. I think it was some kind of a military rifle. But it was the wrong type because it was suggested that I take it back. So, I took it back the next day and got the right kind, specified type. I think he wrote it down on a paper and I give it to the salesman. And, the exchange was made and that was about... end of the deal. I left Alabama shortly after that. That was in March -195-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: of... late March, 1968. Q: Now, at this time, the man Raoul was saying to you that he was trying to setup some sort of gun running operation from the United States to Mexico? JAMES EARL RAY: That was my impression. Yes, he talked that. Q: Did he mention any ultimate destination for the weapons? Cuba, Central America, Canada? JAMES EARL RAY: No, there was never.. there was never any mention of a foreign country except Mexico. The only... I think the only time a foreign country was ever mentioned was I know in 19... in November of 1967 I made a trip there to meet him in New Orleans. And he said something about we would take these guns and all this stuff and make this deal that -196-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: were needed. I would get a certain amount of money, ten or fifteen thousand dollars plus travel documents. He said something... he mentioned Cuba but I wasn't under the impression whether he was going to fight his way in or go in there voluntarily. So, I don't know... I didn't want to get out in the country where they wouldn't be too, you know, there wouldn't be too many problems there. Q: Again, I want to come back to this later because this could be very important. But I would like to again pick up the chronological story. So, you made the purchase of this rifle in Birmingham? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. -197-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: This is the second time you had one and took it back and got the other in Birmingham. And then you left Birmingham in late March, 1968, right at the end of the month? JAMES EARL RAY: I would say March 27th or 28th, yes. Q: And then what happened? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, after I delivered the rifles, the last one I purchased, I was suggested, told to go to Memphis at the time. This is March the 27th and 28th. And the thing that really stuck in my mind on this was, I don't think that Dr. King had made a determination to return to Memphis until.. I think he made it public about April 1st. Q: He did make it public April 1, 1968. -198-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Well, in.. it was suggested that I go there around March 27th or 28th, the same day I purchased the rifle. And I did go to... I was supposed to be there in two or three days. I forget just the exact amount of ah days. But I did go in... not a direct line, but towards Memphis. And I stayed at several motels between Memphis and Birmingham. Of course, I have never been able to find the hotels. I'm sure the Justice Department have the hotels because I used the Gault name. CUT END OF ROLL 2 -199-  [View JPEG scan of this page] ROLL 3 SOUND 3 Q: All right. It is at the very end of March, last two or three days of March, 1968. And you are driving from Birmingham toward Memphis. JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: And, pick up the story there for me if you will. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, like as I believe I mentioned, I stayed in three or four motels there. And, I was supposed to meet this individual in a motel. I believe it was in Memphis. Q: This again by the individual you mean the man you knew as Raoul? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. But in my... presiding list of attorneys I didn't make a mistake on the motels. I had one motel in Mississippi mixed up in Memphis or -200-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: something. The one was in Mississippi and I stayed in March 2nd. Of course, the Justice Department they claim I was in Atlanta March 2nd. Q: Excuse me I believe you mean April 2nd. JAMES EARL RAY: April 2nd, yes. That's right. The one I stayed in April 2nd was the Desoto Motel in Mississippi. Right across the county line from Memphis. The state line. Q: That was two days before the shooting of Dr. King. JAMES EARL RAY: That would have been April 2nd, yes. And... Q: So, that was the Desoto Motel? JAMES EARL RAY: I never did find out the name of that motel until -201-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: I asked the policeman who was guarding the cell and he... I explained the location and everything. And he said, yes, that's the Desoto Motel. The police had had a lot of calls there before, so... there was no question about that. Q: So, on April 2nd you were at the Desoto Motel in Mississippi? And, did you see Raoul at that time? JAMES EARL RAY: No, that's where I... I had some conflict with attorneys because I gave them.. the hotel where I actually named was a rebel motel. The new rebel motel in Memphis. But I got the motels confused, especially when... the attorney then that was representing was named Arthur Haines. And, he made a fairly good investigation but he was unable to find this one motel. And I think that is how we got confused on these various -202-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: CONTINUED: names of the motels. But, I think the Justice Department has a record of them. But anyway I think it was on April 3rd that we had the meeting in this hotel in Memphis. Q: Sorry to interrupt but I want to make sure that I understand this. On April 2nd you were at the Desoto Motel in Mississippi. On April 3rd you moved to the new rebel motel in Memphis. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: All right. It is the night of April 3rd at the new rebel motel in Memphis. And what happened there? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, this is when I got rid of the rifle. I give this to the other party at that... the new -203-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: rebel motel that night. And, I was given some other address in Memphis to meet him sometime the next day. And, subsequently I did but I had never been in Memphis before and I got... lost more or less. But, I finally did find the address. I went to two, three different bars on Main Street and found the correct address. And, that brings up April 4th I think. Q: All right. Tell me as much as you can about what you did on April 4th, 1968. JAMES EARL RAY: That would be difficult to do. I did so much within a.. within I would say a two hour period. Of course, the Justice Department they never had any evidence that I was in this area at all. But, in the motel or anything, in the rooming house or anything like that. But, I think that was the original intent of the lawyers just to -204-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: let the State present their case and they couldn't prove I was there, doing anything. And that would be... it was. But actually for a fact, on April 4th uh... I was.. I did rent a room there but under the instructions of someone else. I was just... this was about four o'clock. I couldn't be certain. It maybe a little later than that. Well, during this time I believe the State's witness, Charles Stevens or something like that, he testified that some individual locked himself in the bathroom two or three hours. Two hours. But, during this period I was... I had went to a tavern once and then another time I went to a sporting goods store to pick up some type of a binoculars you can see in the dark with and -205-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: all that. I went to another restaurant called the Checkersaw Restaurant. I had mail there. This is all between four and six now. And, I think... I may have went to one or two other places. I don't know how... I don't know all these addresses. I went to between this time. I know the Checkersaw Restaurant, the sporting goods store and the tavern and that is what we can prove. And I am certain the Justice Department can. And, I think the shooting took place about six o'clock? Q: That's right. The shooting of Dr. King took place at six P.M. April 4th, 1968. Now, during that day, if I man. I'm having some difficulty following this myself, the night before, this was April 3rd. -206-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: At the new rebel motel in Memphis, you moved up there from the Desoto Motel in Mississippi. That's where you saw the man you call this other individual. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Raoul, at the new rebel motel. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that's correct. Q: And, there you gave him the rifle you had purchased in Birmingham? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Then he asked you to meet him the next day at a -207-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: certain address in Memphis. JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah, it was written down on paper and I think I wrote something down fro him. I was going to use another alias. I think it was some... there was some discussion of what name I was to use. I didn't want to use my own name. I think he just said, check in the room or something. And I don't like to. Well, if you check in a motel you use your own name because you got your license plates. But I don't like to use my own name in a motel because you never know what's going to follow you from it soon. I think that is when we decided I would use the Willard name or something. Q: But, the address turned out to be the now infamous rooming house from where Dr. King -208-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: allegedly was shot. JAMES EARL RAY: I'm certain that was the address, yes. Q: So you went into Memphis the day of April 4th, you had some difficulty finding the address. But, you eventually did find it? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: And then did you go in and rent a room in that rooming house? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, the individual I met was in the tavern underneath. The fact is, I was in there two or three times. I'm certain. Q: This was Raoul? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. And it was... yes, we would stay there for -209-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: three or four days. That was the impression I got. I did rent a room. I rented it, a sleeping room I think it was. But, uh... I'm somewhat converse in that sort of establishment, run down place. And, I suppose I know... I was under the impression we was going to stay there three or four days. And I would have brought all my... everything I had up there, clothing and everything, because just the type of establishment... I mean, no door knob and they had a strap on the door and everything like that. Really what it was, was a wino place. And these type stumble in the room and turn stuff out so... I never... I never really checked into it so... just the bare necessities you might say. Q: And between about four o'clock in the afternoon and six o'clock in the afternoon when Dr. King -210-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: was shot, you say you went to several other places. Went to eat at the Chicksaw Restaurant? JAMES EARL RAY: Chickersaw. Yes, I think... I remember what it was ice cream, I think it was. They said it was... I remember some conversation there the waitress had. She... but I can't recall just... I have it written down somewhere but I can't recall the details. Q: And, you bought a pair of binoculars? JAMES EARL RAY: That was in the sporting goods store, yes. Q: At about what time did you get back to the rooming house, do you remember? JAMES EARL RAY: I really couldn't tell. I think I made about six trips out. The last time I was there I -211-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: believe it was about five o'clock. And, the individual wanted to use my car he said. Well, the night before that I had some kind of.. it wasn't late but the tire went flat and so I took it off and threw it in the trunk of the car. So, I would ah say it was about quarter after five and he suggested that he was going to meet a party oh up there or something. I could go to a movie or something. He wanted to use the car. There were two set of car keys. He had one and I think I had one. I don't know where his was at. And I seen this about five thirty. I think I sat in the car about ten minutes. I think some people seen me sitting there, worked right across the street. And then I think I went to another bar then. I don't recall it. It was across -212-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: the street down a couple of blocks. I think it was Jim's bar or something... the names were so similar. I think one is Jim's Grill and Q: That is just below the rooming house. JAMES EARL RAY: That's right underneath it. But there is a grill named Jim's too I believe but it is across the street, down farther. And that was my problem the first time. I got in the wrong Jim's I think. So, then I think this was about five thirty in the car. I'm just speculating on this. And then I did decide to go to a movie when I went to Jim's bar. And then I decided he was going to use the car I better fix the flat tire where it was. I didn't know what he was going to do with it. -213-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: So I did move the car. I think I.. determined now it must have been about a quarter, ten to six. And, I went to I think a service stand down about.. I would say it was about five blocks from Main Street and in the service stations.... The investigators investigating me says he got statements. Now I don't know if he has or not, because when anyone investigates a case for me, I just tell me what they found out because there has been charges I have been using a... the attorneys more or less a feedback operation. So, I just... I think the investigator, Harrold Weisberg investigated this. And I told him, you investigate this... substantiate it. I don't want to know all the details you just tell me. END OF ROLL 3 -214-  [View JPEG scan of this page] ROLL 4 SOUND 4 Q: All right. So, you believe that it can perhaps can be established that you took the white Mustang to a service station within four, five or six blocks of the rooming house. JAMES EARL RAY: I believe the lady worked across the street could establish that I was in there around five thirty. Now, the investigators tell me they can establish that I was around the service station. And, another lawyer intimated. Now, he didn't tell me exactly that the... place was cordoned off immediately after the shooting and he tells me there is a police officer down there. I don't want to mention the name. I don't want to mention now that he... almost highballed me out of the area and told me to get out of there. Get the hell out of there or something. And... but, like I said, this has never been substantiated because it has never -215-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: been tested in any type of judicial proceedings. But, I suppose if you know, the occasion arose why it would be. Q: Now, this of course, is critical. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: As your recollection as to where you were between let's say five fifty P.M. and just after six o'clock, April 4, 1968, you remember going to the service station? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Having the tire fixed. JAMES EARL RAY: I didn't have it fixed. They said it was busy, the busy hour or something... and they didn't -216-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: have time for it. And I never did get the tire fixed. The fact is, it was in the car when I left it. Probably the unusual thing about this was when I finally got arrested for the charge and was returned to Memphis, they finally got... they took the tire out of the car and gave it to my brother Jerry. And they took the seat covers out of the car and all that stuff. They didn't get in the whole car, they just took certain items out of the car. So, I can't... so like I say, it is sort of unusual they would take potential evidence out and give it to an individual. Q: But again, back to the time. Your recollection of what happened when the service station told you they couldn't fix the tire? -217-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. My recollection from that time? Q: Uh huh. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, my recollection... I don't know how long that took. I believe it was in... I might have been in one or two of them. Guess what time it was. I assume it would be about five minutes of six. But now if the place were... I don't know how long it took them to block off the area. I don't know if they blocked off but at least I seen the squad car... looked like it was parked in the middle of the street. So, I went in the other direction. And so, I would just guess that would be about five after six. I don't know from seeing the program even once -218-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: before, it took about three or four minutes for them to block the street off. Q: My point is that you were not in the rooming house? Or were you between let's say after five thirty P.M. JAMES EARL RAY: No, I'm positive I wasn't in there after five thirty. Q: Not in the rooming house again at all after the latest five thirty P.M. April 4, 1968? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, it could have been five forty or something. But I would guess it would be five thirty. It took me that long to go from the tavern or the restaurant and come back and pick up the car. And, go... drove around the circle here. -219-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: So, when you came back to the rooming house area and you saw police cars you decided to use your phrase, high tail it out of there. JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah. I'm not certain this was the place I was. It was either a block down or right the block I turn into. But, of course, if I see a police car naturally it is instinct to get out of there, regardless of what they are doing there. Q: And then what did you do? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, at that time, I was... went towards New Orleans. It was my intention to go to New Orleans. I think it was about six thirty. I heard a report on the radio that... of the shooting. And I was still going towards New Orleans. Then I heard they was looking for a -220-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: white Mustang or two white Mustangs or something. So I decided not to go to New Orleans. And I went to... through Birmingham, Atlanta and left the car somewhere in Atlanta. And I took a bus back to Canada. Q: All right. So you drove from Memphis... started out to New Orleans and decided you better go to Atlanta. You wound up driving from Memphis to Birmingham to Atlanta. You got to Atlanta the day after the King shooting. That would have been April 5, 1968. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that's correct. Q: And then you caught a bus to... heading North. JAMES EARL RAY: At two thirty that morning, yes sir. -221-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: And went through Cincinnatti and... JAMES EARL RAY: Cincinatti. Q: And on up back into Canada? JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah, Cincinatti and I went to Detroit and from Detroit to back into Canada, that's right. Q: And, what happened when you got into Canada? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh... well, I was less hesitant about checking the passport out then. So, I checked into a room in Canada. The fact is, I checked into two rooms. I was using one to sleep in and I think I told the lady that owned one that I was working nights. And I told the other one that I was working daytime. And then I started making attempts to get the passport. -222-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: I checked the graveyards first, and I thought that wasn't too good an idea. So then I went directly to the Travel Agency. I didn't call them, I went directly and I explained my situation but... that I was working somewhere in Canada and I wanted to get a passport to go to England. So, I believe these Travel Agencies they can get some type of permission so she explained the whole operation to me. And then I got the passport. But before that, I had to make... I had to... I had to find someone's passport where I could use his name. In Canada it is different than in the United States. They don't use fingerprints they just use pictures. But, I assumed at the time, if you applied for someone's passport and you had your picture on -223-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: it and you sent your picture up there, there might be some conflict there. So, I got several peoples names, three or four. And I called them up. And I told them I was a representative of the... I didn't have too good an English accent. I told them I was a representative of the Registrar's General office I believe. And I wanted to know if they ever had a passport or some type of mix up. So, when I found one that didn't have the passport, then I applied for the passport in his name. He happened to be a policeman. So, when I applied for the passport about three weeks later, it came. It came and they had made some type of typographical error on the passport. Q: It was under the name of Snead? -224-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: That was Snead. Raymond George Snead was it. Q: So, you wound up getting the passport and then you left Canada for... JAMES EARL RAY: England. I had a round trip ticket. Q: Where had you intended to go? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, my problem there was finances. I think I had at that time, left in a sort of serious situation financially speaking. I think I had about twelve hundred dollars at the time. I wanted to go as far away as possible. Australia preferably. And, but... when I got there I cashed the round trip ticket in and went to Portugal. And my intentions over there was try to catch a ship to some other country. Some other English speaking country. -225-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: South Africa or Australia or... or where there is not too many English people. New Zealand or something like that. But, that never did work out. When I got to Portugal uh... I did find a ship that was going to some country I can't recall the name now. BF or somewhere. But, Portugal has some kind of rule where you had to wait a week for a visa. And the ship was leaving within three days I think it was. So, consequently I couldn't make the ship and I couldn't find another one out. So the result was that I returned to England. Q: And, that's where you were captured? JAMES EARL RAY: I was captured three weeks after I returned there, yes. -226-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Well, I appreciate your taking me through that because I have never heard you go through that whole sequence of things. Let me loop back and ask some questions on the basis of what you told me, to increase our understanding. Let us go back in time to 1967 after you have escaped from the Missouri Prison, worked in Chicago for awhile but have gone to Canada for the first time. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Now, that was where you met Raoul? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: Was that the first time you had met him or heard of him? -227-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: That's the first time I ever met him. It was in the I don't know if you would say the criminal area, but it was in the water front and there is a lot of... in that area. I gave some investigators the name and the place that I met him. They checked it out but... of course, they know the place and of course, they didn't find the individual. Q: And how did you happen to make contact with him? Or he with you? JAMES EARL RAY: I originally went down there to attempt to buy or possibly roll a drunk for his... merchant seaman papers where I could use them to leave Canada. But, it is difficult me explaining how oh you make contact with somebody outside the law. It is just... comes natural more or less. It's a... you learn after a certain length of -228-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: time. But that is where I made contact originally, in the waterfront area of Montreal. Q: This was in the early summer of 1967? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I would guess it would be about... yes, August, 1967. Q: You made contact with Raoul. Did you ever know any other name? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I never did... there was never a... he never gave me a name. And of course, I gave him a name. I think I was using an alias at that time too. Q: Did he set uh you up for a couple of smuggling runs into the United States? -229-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that's correct. Q: From Canada? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: To where? To the Detroit area? JAMES EARL RAY: Detroit, yes. JAMES EARL RAY: And then uh it was Raoul was it, or wasn't it, that suggested that you go to Birmingham? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, he is the only individual I ever had any contact with. END OF ROLL 4 END OF TAPE -230-  [View JPEG scan of this page] ROLL 5 SOUND 5 VOICE: Used to watch TV in Missouri and raise hell when King came on the cable. We never had TV. Q: I wanted to ask you about that. We checked on that. As a matter of fact, the warden said you didn't have television. JAMES EARL RAY: No, we wasn't even allowed a radio. SOUND ROLL 2 CAMERA ROLL 5 TAKE 5 Q: Was it this same Raoul or was it who suggested that you go from Canada to Birmingham? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that was the same man, individual. In fact, that was the only individual that I ever had any direct contact with. -231-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Did he go with you from Canada to Birmingham? Or was it a case of his meeting you in Birmingham after you got there? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I left him in Detroit and I went on to Birmingham by Chicago. Q: And then, this was the same person when... one you call Raoul, who got you to go from Alabama through Louisiana into Mexico? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct, yes. Q: And then after you went from Mexico to Los Angeles, he recontacted you in Los Angeles? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh... there was some contact there. As I mentioned, I went to the general delivery office... post office one time but I'm not certain whether -232-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: he contacted me through the post office. Maybe I contacted him. But I did write it all down. I got it in a vault but it is difficult to recall all these contacts. Q: I understand. JAMES EARL RAY: A lot of times you contact someone, you are supposed to and he is not there and you might get in your head you know, that you actually contacted him. But, I'm trying to think... I might have contacted him first in Los Angeles because I know I went to the post office. There was nothing there. So I think... I believe there was another instance, later on that he did contact me, through the mail. But I don't believe it was the post office. I think it was the... where I was living at at the time. But I'm not certain of that now. -233-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: But at any rate in late 1967, fall, early winter contact with Raoul was reestablished. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, that's right. Q: And, that's when you went back to Atlanta? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, the contact was reestablished in December, 1967 and I made it. I made a trip to New Orleans to see him at that time. And he told me if I was still around there might be something going on later on. And, that was about four months before I left there. Of course, in the meantime I didn't... I did make various attempts to get this travel document in another manner. In other ways but I never did come to anything. -234-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: But, eventually you did go back to Atlanta to sort of establish headquarters there with Raoul? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: And that is when the sequence of events began with his going with oh you to Birmingham to buy the weapon? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: And, you wound up seeing him for the last time you say, at the... in the area of the rooming house on Main Street? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. That's good enough. Yes. Q: Could you describe Raoul for me? -235-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I couldn't describe him for you except to say he is a... he appeared to be a Latin Spanish... I have associated with Spanish people... Spanish speaking people quite a bit and I'm certain he was of Spanish origin. I don't know what country but it was Spanish. I've been shown various pictures of individuals. And some of them are similar to him but a lot of people are not photogenic. You can't identify someone out of a picture. I know when the police was looking for me I was never identified from a picture. For two months except... of course, people I worked with couldn't identify the picture. So I'm not too... I can't say I ever identified anyone from a picture. And really I'm not interested in you know, identifying anyone from -236-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: you know, for some type of state witness. I want to be more or less a witness for myself, and let the prosecution present their witnesses. But, of course, with an attorney that would be a different story. He would have to know what the case was all about. Q: What I was looking for was a rough description of Raoul. A short man, tall man, medium height, heavy man, light man. JAMES EARL RAY: I would say he was about average height, five feet a hundred fifty pounds. (NOISE).... The hair was the only thing... that stands out. Most of the Latins are dark haired. Had a kind of auburn... dark auburn. That is the only thing that really distinguished him from anyone else. Of course, I suppose you could die your hair or something, if you want to. -237-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: I've... older than mine sometimes. Q: Do you know what kind of passport he carried? JAMES EARL RAY: I never did ask him on that. I assumed he had one. I never did cross any border with him personally. He usually went across in a separate conveyance. And I went... I assume he went across in a taxi cab. I usually drove across in the car. Q: Have you had any contact with him of any kind anything you would even suspect as a contact, since the day that Martin Luther King was shot? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I've never had any contacts for a long time, here for a couple of years I used to have... I used to... I didn't receive any mail. I had it all forwarded. So, I don't know what contacts -238-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: the lawyers have had. But, personally I've never had any contact with anyone. And I don't really want... not interested in having any contact with anyone that I might have been involved with on the street. Q: Did he at any time give you any indication of his being in contact with or belonging to any group? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I... my impression was more or less of a... some type of things for monetary gain. There was no messing in politics or anything like that. There was messing going to Cuba once but that could have been either way see. I don't know if... there has been a lot of talk about anti-Communist and pro-Communist Cubans in the case. In fact, I think the attorney that defended me that time, uh... one of his stipulations was -239-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: that if he did go to trial that the FBI was supposed to arrest some individual he was... a Cuban background. I'm not certain, I thought he was anti-Communist. It may have been the other way around. But, I didn't want to get involved in that type of... Q: That was what attorney? Which attorney? JAMES EARL RAY: Percy Forman. Q: He talked to you about the possibility of the FBI arresting someone with a Cuban background in the case? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. In early February, 1969, that was when I still thought we was going to trial, he brought a bunch of pictures to jail one time. I assume there was about ten or fifteen and he -240-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: had me go through them as alleged people that the FBI wanted to get out of circulation. I think... I believe most of them were Latin type. I think there was one black and a few whites. And, he did mention this one individual, I don't remember.... I don't recall the picture plainly but I think the pictures later were presented to the Tennessee Grand Jury by William Radford Hughie. I read the Grand Jury testimony. But anyway, I think his story was that the FBI was going to arrest this individual and I would make some type of identification and I guess that would be basis in some manner for defense in the case. Q: But, that never happened? -241-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: No, that never did come about. Q: Did you ever hear any more about it at all? JAMES EARL RAY: About those pictures? And things like that? I've seen various pictures off and on. There has been names mentioned but it might be libelous for me to mention the names But, I'm not... I just don't know nothing about the pictures. I mean the FBI knows about them. William Bradford Huighie, Percy Foreman. But, the only thing I know is what they... what has been related to me. And I think the Attorney General in Memphis knows about it because I think he subpoenaed the pictures from William Bradford Hughie. Q: Which could be very important Mr. Ray, in let me say if there is a libel problem, the libel -242-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: problem of course, will be ours. And I am most interested in hearing any name that you have heard mentioned in this connection, you know, so we could check it or look into it? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, they took pictures... you mean the pictures the FBI wanted to get out of circulation? Q: Right. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I think one of them was... one picture was taken in Dallas or something, in 1963. There was no names given. And one picture was an individual named Jack Youngblood. I think another picture was... he was a... Youngblood was a..... he was white and I think there is another individual uh... I'm not certain there is but I think he was waiting trial in Memphis on a bank robbery charge. He was some Ku Klux Klan -243-  [View JPEG scan of this page] picture or something... in the Klan. But, it was my impression he is waiting on trial because I saw his picture in the paper. But it was my impression none of these individuals had done anything. It was just the FBI was and the Justice Department were down on them for one reason or other. Q: You mentioned a picture in Dallas, 1963. This was a picture at about the time of the John Kennedy Assassination? JAMES EARL RAY: I think there is some people interested or arrested in that area immediately after the shooting. Q: And, a picture was shown oh to you to see if you could identify somebody in -244-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: the area. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Did you identify anybody in the picture? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I identified him as looking similar. But a lot of people look similar but I never identified anybody that I knew personally. Q: And these were photographs shown to you by your attorney at that time? Percy Foreman? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: He said these were people that the FBI had in some way were interested in getting out of circulation or wanted to know more about? -245-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Let me pick up on another page and I do appreciate your taking me all the way through that. Q: Did you fire the shot that killed Dr. Martin Luther King? JAMES EARL RAY: No, and I think now based on investigations of those who have represented me, on the face.... I've had a lot of representation, unofficially that we could prove it through some type of judicial proceedings. But I can't see... I can't see any opportunity proving through any other medium. Q: I want to ask you again. This is a man to man head, to head, eye to eye question. Did you fire the shot that killed Dr. King? -246-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: No I didn't and like I say, I think now that in this particular point in time, that we can prove that I didn't. END OF CAMERA ROLL 5 -247-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 2 CAMERA ROLL 6 TAKE 6 Q: Want to pick it up there? If I may. Did you knowingly have anything to do with the shooting of Dr. King? JAMES EARL RAY: No I didn't but I really don't think that's... I think that is a new question because when I was extradited from England uh... the think the treaty law specifies don't it, the thing they could try me on would be doing the actual shooting. Aiding and abetting and... conspiracy or that stuff would... they wouldn't be able... charges against under the treaty terms. Q: True. JAMES EARL RAY: But, if you... Q: But, if you didn't fire the shot that killed -248-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: Dr. King and you say flatly, definitely that you did not, right? Why then did you plead guilty? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, actually that is a two fold... There is two fold answers to that. Uh... actually there was never any suggestion of a guilty plea until early February. I would say sometime after the pictures. You know, the pictures I just got through mentioning. Q: See, would this be in February of 1969? JAMES EARL RAY: I would say about February, 1967. Of course, I refused to identify the pictures. Not so much identify them but the process they wanted to go through, you know, want me to identify them. Of course, that could have come back on me. But, anyway the way they actually got the plea -249-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: is twofold. First, Foreman at that time was defending me. He said they had one witness who was... the government had already bribed or something. I believe that was Charles Stevenson. I think they had promised him a hundred thousand dollar reward or something to testify against me. Q: This was the man in the rooming house? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: Who, at one time allegedly said that he had seen you in the rooming house. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, he made an identification. He based his identification on my profile. He said the individual he seen running from the rooming -250-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: house had a short pointed nose. And of course, I have... the FBI told him and I suppose the Justice Department just so happened I had plastic surgery and my nose is flat more or less. So, his identification was... actually his identification was refuted by his wife's. Q: But at that time, in February, 1969 when you were about to go to trial you didn't know that. JAMES EARL RAY: No, I didn't know anything at that time. Q: So, that was one of the factors in your deciding to plead guilty? JAMES EARL RAY: No, that was.... he brought that up. That was one of his arguments that the State was prepared to bribe a witness. Well, I didn't think too much of the witness because I had been arguing -251-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: an article in the paper about he was I think they said he was addicted to formented grapes or something. And the other argument was that the lady done convict the man. Of course, now that was the only valid argument. That was how it was because there had to have been substantial reporting of my past criminal record. And I assume the jury might not... individual had been incarcerated several times for crimes, he would be... that would be the type of individual that would go for some type of operation that we were talking about. And, but... then there was another suggestion that it might be to my financial gain if I would enter a guilty plea and I think you saw the contracts. The various contracts. -252-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Excuse me. This was contract with the Arthur William Bradford Hughie. JAMES EARL RAY: And Percy Foreman. Q: And Percy Foreman. So that was another argument used for you to plead guilty. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. See, I signed all this money from William Bradford Hughie over to Percy Foreman on February 3, 1969, under the stipulation that he would take me to trial. Of course, after he got the contract, then he didn't want to go to trial. So, then on the day of the guilty plea, the day before the guilty plea he ordered contracts stipulating that he would just get a hundred sixty five thousand dollars from William Bradford Hughie, and I would get the rest. -253-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Well, of course, you know, there is no arrest there and I am not interested in going to the penitentiary. But I think we can get back to the reason. Q: Right. JAMES EARL RAY: On the plea. I think of course the State's argument and then the money and then the... other reason I mentioned. But, uh... I think in this area, the one thing that convinced me that it would be in my interest to enter a plea, was that I thought they was going to throw the case more or less, Percy Foreman was, because he gave me every impression that... they use that psychology on you. It is not really... it is not heavy psychology but they use it... they want you to know what their intentions are. JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: And I thought if I... should have forced him to go to trial he may have went down there and not really put up the best efforts. And, of course, no one could have picked... you can't... a layman can't pick up what a lawyer is doing. I say for a grand he might take it up or something like that. But, that was one of the two fold reasons I have given you. The other was threats against family members. Percy Foreman he delivered a couple of threats against the family members. He mentioned that they might arrest my brothers, Jerry and John, and bring them down there. But, that did the... that influenced me somewhat but at the time, I was so naive. After all my experience with the legal system they -255-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: probably would resort to something like that. But... subsequently, one of my brothers, John Ray, he was shortly after I was arrested, he was... after I was convicted, he was arrested in St. Louis, Missouri. Charges of aiding and abetting a bank robbery. And the circumstances was, he was driving down the street and they arrested him and said he had aided someone robbing a bank. Well the police, the local police shook down his car and they didn't find anything. But later, the FBI they found this perverbal evidence they always find. They found a glove or something at the robbery. But anyway they tried him with another individual for robbing the bank and they gave him eighteen years. The jury convicted him. The other -256-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: individual twelve years. Well, the other individual was reversed on appeal. He said that the money was taken from him by illegal search and seizure. They ruled the money was taken from my brother... they could use it against him. So, he is ding eighteen years now in Marion. But later on, they arrested another individual who allegedly robbed the bank and I believe they gave him three years. And apparently the Justice Department and the... had some Federal Judge reduce his eighteen years. Q: Which left your brother serving the most time. And you think this is an example of a kind of harassment that your family has been subjected to? -257-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah, my brother now... he did six years in a maximum security joint in Marion and then he went for parole and they said he had the wrong attitude or something. But, there is one other particular part where I can say the most vicious threats but I can't go into them now, but I think possibly if there is some type of process by some investigating committee or some judicial or congress and I might be able to go into that later on. Q: Well, let me stop for a moment and ask you. Are you willing to testify for the House Committee setup to look into the death of Dr. King as well as the John Kennedy assassination? JAMES EARL RAY: I think it would all depend... I think if they are going on the premise that I'm guilty of everything the Justice Department and the various -258-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: uh... books that the Justice Department has collaborated in like the McMillian and the Frank Books, and they are just... the only thing they are interested in is finding out the... maybe who else is involved. I don't see much point in me testifying then. However, if... if I... a Federal judge in Washington put various evidence under seal for fifty years, I think they go into that and... go into all the evidence, well it might be difficult for me to refuse to testify. I would have to... discuss this with a lawyer and everything and... but I think I just have to... see, they recently wanted to investigate... take a statement from Percy Foreman. I read some allegation of the chief counsel, that Mrs........ if they could question Foreman -259-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: and I would waive my privilege communication rule, well they think they can break the case. As I said, Mrs. Spragg is a.... in line with this a couple of days ago I sent a waiver and so I waived any right I might have under the attorney-client privilege. So they can go down and question him whenever they want to. And he has mentioned various phone numbers and individuals but he has never gave me the names. He has just referred to them and I think I sent I sent Mr.... card again. I my have sent some information. Q: Let me picture, understand this. That under the law no one can question your defense attorney at the time, Percy Foreman of Houston. JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah. -260-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: Unless you grant a waiver. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. Q: And, you have given such a waiver to the House Investigating Committee? JAMES EARL RAY: I sent Mrs. Spragg a waiver about two days ago. Q: Which, is it your hope that will allow them to question Mr. Foreman in detail? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes, in detail. I mean, I'm not... if they want to go into all of it. He's gave a deposition, he's referred to various individuals and organizations. Of course, I mean they are all top investigators, Mr. Spragg and them, and the committee members. It is not necessary for me -261-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: to instruct them how to carry on an investigation. But I think if there is evidence that they want to go into everything, well then, that might influence those representing me in what we should do. Q: Let me see if I understand this. You are eager that the House Select Committee investigate and question Mr. Percy Foreman in detail. JAMES EARL RAY: I'm not really eager. But I recognize that there are various things that a Congressional subpoena can get that I can never get. Now, for instance, when I had the habus corpus hearing in 1974 in Memphis, one of the first ruling the judges got down was that we couldn't subpoena anyone over one hundred miles from Memphis. Consequently, we couldn't subpoena any justice -262-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: department files or anything. And naturally, they were as quiet as a perverbal church mouse at that time. None of them could testify at the hearing. Well, I think a Congressional Hearing if they really want to go into depth could spend these various files I mentioned. END OF CAMERA ROLL 6 -263-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 2 CAMERA ROLL 7 TAKE 7 Q: Would it be accurate to say Mr. Ray, that if the committee subpoena's Percy Foreman and questions him in detail, that would be persuasive with you to testify also? JAMES EARL RAY: No I don't believe... I believe Percy Foreman will be their witness. But the reason I gave him the waiver, he is been the State's most vocal advocate of the State's case. He's been on talk shows and everything. So, he has made various statements that I wrote so, I thought maybe I would show good faith effort and they could take it up from there. What I'm really concerned about is there has been reports that FBI has thirteen volumes... no, thirteen crates and ninety some volumes of investigative material plus some judge in -264-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Washington has various of them under seal. I'm concerned about that type of thing. That they go into that. But, I'm not interested in any personal life or anything regardless of who it is. But, if there is some type of threats or something like that, when that would be irrevalent to the case. But the... I don't know, I don't know a thing. If they will have time to... I think the mandate runs out March 31st. Whether they will all make any effort in that direction or not. Q: Personal opinion. Would you like to see the House Committee financed well enough to carry it's work forward or do you think they have done about all they can realistically be expected to do? -265-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I don't think they have done much of anything maybe debating between one another. It really doesn't make too much difference to me except as I mentioned, they can find out evidence that I will never be able to find out through the course because they... I think Congress has a subpoena. I can get a subpoena too but... unlike the Watergate case, the Federal judge in this case they are not interested in really... uh... you know, going all out with a subpoena. They seem to try to... live with the subpoena then expand it. Q: I do want to come back to the question of whether you are willing under any circumstances, to testify before the House Committee. Do I judge your answer to be perhaps? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. I believe what my answer would be. I will -266-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: discuss with an attorney. He has indicated that he is not one way or the other against it. And after we... but I don't want... if I do testify I don't ah want... I wouldn't want to testify on any type of executive session. And the various members leak various... well not members of the Congress but members of the staff leak information out like they... the Church Committee. Ray said this and Ray said that. I would rather testify in public not necessarily on TV or anything, but have a public record where it would be available to anyone, who was interested in it. Q: Would you be willing to talk here at the prison with the Attorney General? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I can't see... I can't see any advantage of having an expert meeting with the Attorney -267-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: General. I have no advantage... I have no objection if he wants to question me on a witness stand. I believe the attorney in Nashville, Jack Kirshfel, he said he could question me at length. And I think there maybe a... an opportunity of that showing because there is a couple of law suits involve... my brother is involved in one of them and I know I'm involved in another one. So, there is never... there won't be no hesitation of testifying under oath on the witness stand. The... under the Congressional... the drawback is the Congressional that.... you don't have the opportunity to cross examine. I think the problem would be here that they might call up eight or ten convicts and of course, you can get these a dime a dozen from other prisons. From Missouri and things like that and they can come up with some yarn. There -268-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: wouldn't be no opportunity to examine them personally. Q: The Attorney General if I read his language correctly, and perhaps I don't, at least in a between the lines fashion, has held out the following prospect. That if you would reveal to him information that you never revealed before, help solve the "conspiracy aspects." of the case, that perhaps some arrangement can be worked out for a reduction in your sentence. Now, what do you think about that? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I don't think much of anything about that. This thing of being a state witness or even being perceived to be a state witness is a... there is a lot of pitfalls there. I mean, you can let these people like V......... winds up in solitary confinement. If I testify for anyone -269-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: it will be for myself. I am not concerned with the State's case. That's their problem. Uh. I don't... you mentioned Mr. Bell. Q: Well, I was simply asking you whether you would be agreeable to that kind of arrangement. And I gather you definitely are not? JAMES EARL RAY: No, I don't... I can't see why that would be an advantage. Actually I was offered a similar situation in 1968. I believe when Arthur Haines was still defending me. Q: That was your first defense attorney? JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. I think it was some type of reduced sentence. But... this type of thing here. There is too many pitfalls. I don't want to get -270-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: involved in that type of thing. Any type of situation whereby I would have to rely on the Justice Department because they have... I think they have a sort of an in here hostility with my background anyway. So, I'm rather keep them at arms length. Q: Mr. Ray, do you think there was a conspiracy to kill Martin Luther King? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, I couldn't say... after I returned to... after I arrived at the prison back in 1969, I had various individuals, not necessarily lawyers, investigate information that I had. I didn't have you know, a great deal of information but I had it investigated. And over six or seven year period... over a six or seven year period they did look into various aspects of it. -271-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: And it has never been... want in depth but what information we have given... we have arrived at by indicating some element of the Teamster's Union and there was some report that Dr. King may have been... intended... like in Vietnam to support the... get involved in the Arab conflict. Then there was another... some other information about the AELLA, some type of law enforcement association in New Orleans you know, in 1967 or something. But I don't know... like I say these have never been gone into in depth and it could be a disservice for someone to make these allegations and later on find out that they were... some of the evidence was..... -272-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: I have never even heard an allegation on the speculative plain made about the Teamsters Union. Now, what have you heard in that regard? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, in the... sometime around February of 1969, uh... first you have to understand Percy Foreman his methods of conducting a trial. He never asks anything until he says he is investigating the State's case. Well, sometime in... sometime in late I would say about February 17th or 18th, he asked me to explain the case to him. Well, I explained it to him. He started writing down and kept getting a cramp in his hand and he asked me to finish up. So, I wrote everything down in long hand from the time I escaped from the penitentiary until I think I arrived in Canada the second time. That was after the shooting of -273-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Dr. King. And now, if we can take that from there and go on around till about February of 14th or 15th, uh... when Arthur Haines was defending me, I was somewhat hesitant to give him information because he was giving it to William Bradford Hughie and he was investigating it and the FBI was coming by it. And, consequently everytime Hines come up here he would have a new branch of witnesses against me. So I was testifying against myself. But anyway, in February of 14th or 15th, I did give Percy Foreman one of these phone numbers to investigate. Q: A phone number in New Orleans? -274-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: No, it was in Baton Rouge. Q: Baton Rouge. JAMES EARL RAY: And, he came down a few days and said something about uh... if there is any phone numbers to be presented he would present them and he had some type of a contact interstate gambling. He mentioned someone named [Meyer] Lansky. But, he didn't say he was going to get him off Lansky he just said that he knew someone that knew this party and they would furnish the phone number for me if I ever stood trial. So, I didn't make too much sense. It might have made sense to him. It was never explained to me just what manner the numbers had been used. I was supposed to use them from the witness stand or what. But... -275-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: How does that fit in with the Teamster's Union? Was some of those numbers suggested to you as Teamster numbers? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, later on I had someone investigate the case. And in 1969 after I come to prison, I had an individual in St. Louis that I used to know in prison. He was a labor leader and he had someone in Nashville investigate it. And they said the number was involved in some distant factor of the Teamsters. And they also investigated these other aspects of it. Q: This of course, gets very complicated. I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting as a possible lead. That's the area in which we are talking now. That the man you knew as Raoul sometimes would call numbers in Louisiana, you on occasion called -276-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: numbers in Louisiana. And, it was suggested to you somewhere along the line, that some of those numbers maybe... may have had something to do with a dissident group of the Teamster's Union in Louisiana. JAMES EARL RAY: This was in Baton Rouge. But the thing is, I never made any contact with the Baton Rouge number. So, I thought maybe it might have been planted and later on, after a couple two or three years of investigation, I became certain it was. END OF CAMERA ROLL 7 -277-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 3 CAMERA ROLL 8 TAKE 8 Q: I just want to look back at one thing. When you mentioned the name Lansky as having been mentioned to you, in some contacts by your defense attorney, Percy Foreman, you were talking about the Meyer Lansky whose name has been connected with stories about the underworld. JAMES EARL RAY: Yeah, that's right. Q: But, you were saying that you never made contact with any number in Baton Rouge. JAMES EARL RAY: No. Q: Did you make contact with a number in New Orleans? JAMES EARL RAY: That's correct. Q: Did you contact Raoul through that telephone? -278-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY: Yes I made I would say two or three contacts with Raoul. Q: So this lead about the possible involvement of a dissident faction of the Teamster's Union was lead you would like to see pursued? JAMES EARL RAY: No, not particularly because I think now it may have been planted because I never did call it. But, I think possibly, Percy Foreman he may have discussed it... he was associated here with lawyers in Tennessee. He may have discussed it with them. They might I think now for political reasons or something, decided not to bring it in. I don't know if that was... if that is a valid reason for not bringing the name in or not. But I think that was the reason. -279-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Personal opinion. If the House Committee were to get Percy Foreman to testify in detail, under oath, do you think it would crack the case from your standpoint? JAMES EARL RAY: There has been reports in the paper that as I mentioned, the other people... no, I don't think it would. I think we had... he's got phone numbers. I think he is trying to put the heat on someone that is really not involved in it, because that has always been my impression. And... I've never got the impression from anyone that they was really interested in resolving the case. For instance, when I first come to prison, in 1969, the correction commission then was named Harry Avery. And his... his story always was to me. Was not to cooperate, but just forget the whole thing and do the time. -280-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: And later on you know, it is possible to... or something and that is one of the things that threw me off because I know prosecutors always want you to cooperate with them. But now, Avery he was telling me just forget it. And of course, he said he was speaking for the highest authority. So, I assume he was talking about the Governor of Tennessee, Buford Duncan and the Justice Department. Q: You've been quoted as saying, in the past and I want to ask you directly whether you said this. That you thought you were "Railroaded in some kind of deal between Percy Foreman and his friend, Ramsey Clark, who was then the Attorney General." JAMES EARL RAY: Well, that is difficult to determine. Uh... he -281-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: testified in a deposition that he went to school with Ramsey Clark's father and he is a best friend of Ramsey Clark and he had made several calls to him before the trial. And, he also said he was a friend of John J. Hooker Senior for twenty five years. Q: Well, the defense attorney. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, all these people are very copetent attorneys but they are all more or less on a friendly basis. And they might have determined this for social reason just to get me to the penitentiary wouldn't be a big loss because I would probably be in the penitentiary for one reason or the other, anyway. Just let things slide up because I was kept in solitary confinement for five years. And that was... I -282-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: usually get... give an official and unofficial reasons. They tell the public that I maybe... I might escape, I might get in some type of conflict with another convict. But the story was always to me, that if you will drop this litigation we might consider letting you out. I never did drop it and I never did get out until 1975. Q: You say it might have been a case of for political and social reasons they wanted to make it a case of you being a lone assassin and get the case out of the way. Do you believe in fact that was what it was? JAMES EARL RAY: Uh... well, I think you mean the reason the... play was done and everything like that. I think it is really basically it is the prevailing ethics in the United States. Some people des- -283-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: cribe it as of a middle class housewife not necessarily women but the self-righteous pretentious, I think that's... I think that type of thing permeates the judiciary and everything. And of course, in this bar in... these various motor national companies, you know, of the various overseas operations and all that stuff. So, I think that's... I don't think there is no real just a simple answer to it. It's a combination of things I believe. Q: Let me take you back to that day in the court room when you had your day in court. Short day it was. The judge asked you whether you were doing it voluntarily, the guilty plea, and you said, yes sir. And the judge asked you "are you -284-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: pleading guilty of murder." in the first degree, in the case because you killed Dr. Martin Luther King." Under such circumstances, that it would make you legally guilty of murder in the first degree under the laws explained to you by your lawyers. And to mat from the judge you answered, yes, legally uh huh. And then when he said are you doing it voluntarily you said, yes sir. I can't understand if you knew that you didn't pull the trigger on the gun that killed Dr. King, why you would go that far and say those things? JAMES EARL RAY: Well, this was all decided on March 9th, the day before the play was there. At that time I had determined that there was no way that I could force Percy Foreman to go to trail where... with any prospects of success. I did assume -285-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: that I could have made the... defended myself. That would have been ridiculous, end up with fifty, sixty years. And, once you get a jury trial, they usually chose the media... the segment of the media that supports the government. They usually say that's the... that's it, you know, you've had your day in court. But I still... I did enter a plea of guilty and I could have had an investigation after the plea, with newly discovered evidence. The possibility that the case could have been reversed and won the trial. But, however, that was my original intention.... of trying to find new discovered evidence. But shortly after the plea, I think it was maybe the next day, uh of course, Percy Foreman and the judge and the prosecutor they were starting to campaign that I was guilty and that -286-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: I thought then that if I had waited around a year or something to investigate the case, that they would have convinced... they had oh got public opinion and everything convinced that I was guilty of everything charged. So, consequently, we decided or I decided to try to open the case on fraud. But I... at that time, I didn't know the extent of the fraud that was involved. I knew the contracts, yes. Q: The contracts between Percy Foreman and the author, William Bradford Hughie. JAMES EARL RAY: Yes. As we went along we seen how it was concealed contracts and everything else... contracts said if I didn't plead guilty why so and so wouldn't get money and all that stuff. -287-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q: Well, that same day when you entered your guilty plea, there was a whole series of questions involving the voluntary nature of your plea. That you knew what you were doing, you weren't being forced, that you knew you were giving up your right to appeal, all of those things were laid out to you. And you answered to all of those, yes you knew what you were doing. JAMES EARL RAY: If I had it all to do over again, I really don't see how I could have done anything different. As I say, on March 9th... on March 9th is when we... that was the day before the plea, that is when the... everything was arranged. I signed contracts giving him a hundred sixty five thousand. He made certain things and all these things written out. Even to what I was... I was supposed to read over his shoulder what the answers to the judge. And, it was his, -288-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: Percy Foreman's what he represented to me was that after the plea, he would go his way and I would go mine. Until I got the case reversed and he wouldn't say anything. Q: A hundred sixty thousand was book money that you promised him. JAMES EARL RAY: He was supposed to get that from a movie. I've never been told how much he did get but I don't believe he received quite that much. Q: Percy Foreman has said to me when I raised some of these questions with him personally, that you were guilty, absolutely guilty, that his own investigation showed that. That he in fact, did you a great favor by saving your life. And that you plead guilty because it was the only plea where you had a chance of saving your -289-  [View JPEG scan of this page] Q CONTINUED: life. JAMES EARL RAY: Well, first, after the plea the judge and the prosecutor had a news conference. The judge said he wanted the guilty plea because he was afraid he would get a hung jury, and I would get acquitted. I really... I haven't seen anybody that has testified that they thought that I had to plead to escape the death penalty. I think the only ones that... has testified to that is Percy Foreman because he has got contracts with me for books and he would be... he couldn't testify any other way. In other words, he couldn't say he testified that I entered a guilty plea for ninety nine years in order to keep from getting two hundred because ninety nine is the maximum. But... uh... I just never heard of anybody. -290-  [View JPEG scan of this page] JAMES EARL RAY CONTINUED: I think the sixth circuit just recently they ruled that I entered the plea because uh... I thought later I could get a smart lawyer to get the case reversed. I don't make too much... it makes a lot of sense to them but it doesn't to me. So... Q: That same day in court there was a moment in your guilty plea hearing when the prosecutor Philip Canalley, said we have no proof other than that Dr. King was killed by James Earl Ray and James Earl Ray alone. Not in concert with anyone else. And there was byplay of statements between Mr. Canalley the prosecutor, and the defense attorney, Mr. Foreman. That said we were out of film. END OF CAMERA ROLL 8 END OF TAPE -291-  [View JPEG scan of this page] SOUND ROLL 3 CAMERA ROLL 9 SOUND TAKE 9 WHO'S WHO "JAMES EARL RAY" RATHER: There was a time in your guilty plea hearing when the prosecutor said we have no proof other than Dr. King was killed by James Earl Ray and James Earl Ray alone and not in concert with anyone else. And there was apparently some byplay between your defense attorney, Mr. Foreman, and the prosecutor Mr. Canalli, and you got up at a point where it was said in the courtroom there was no proof of your being a dupe or a fall guy or a member of any conspiracy. And after that you interrupted and said that you took exception to the statement that there was no conspiracy. You said you didn't, quote, exactly accept the theories that there was no conspiracy. The theories of then U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark and then FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, as you put it. Now what did you mean by that when you got up in the courtroom and said you didn't exactly accept those theories. RAY: Well, first I wasn't objecting to anything the prosecutor said, Mr. Canalli, -- naturally I -- it's expected he was going to make as strong a case as he can for his particular case. What I did object to is when Percy Foreman, in effect, became a spokesman for the Justice Department. RATHER: Saying that there was no conspiracy. -292-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Yes. It was our agreement the day before that that he was -- that the only thing I -- the only thing he would be down there for is just to have the script when I entered the plea. Of course it took me by surprise when he -- when he did -- when he finally did went into -- RATHER: And that's the reason you got up and said you didn't exactly accept that. RAY: Well, before -- I'm not -- I think what you're getting at -- I don't want to anticipate you -- I think what you're getting at -- what would I have said if the judge maybe would have questioned me about -- I'm -- I'm not certain what I did -- would have -- would have said. When Percy Foreman first come in the case, he promised the judge and the newspapers and the whole -- whole works, that there wouldn't be no contracts involved. Well, he hadn't been in the case two, three days and he was more deeply involved in the contracts than the previous attorney, Arthur Haynes. RATHER: These are the book contracts. RAY: Yeah, the book contracts, yes. So consequently, what -- when he didn't make the statement, I think the judge would have asked me about the -- what did I mean -- I think I would have went into contracts and -- I don't know if I would have went into all the other details heretofore -293-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) run down with you because there's a -- there's a disadvantage in an adversary system telling the other side everything you know. And of course the judge mentioned that -- the judge mentioned that himself once. He said he -- when he was a prosecutor he always played everything close to this. Well as a prosecutor he can play it close to the vest, well I suppose it's all right if the defense plays theirs close to the vest. But I think that's -- I don't -- of course it's a hypothetical question. I don't know what the judge would have went into if -- if he would have put me on the stand, but -- RATHER: My point is at that particular juncture, when you said you didn't exactly accept the theory of the then U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark and FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, I'm wondering what theories did you have in mind that Hoover wasn't putting forward. For example. RAY: That may have been a poor choice of words. I should have said pronouncements that they were putting out. I didn't -- well I -- I disagreed with -- in other words I didn't want to go beyond anything that I had agreed to before. I thought I went the bare minimum or maximum, whichever you want to call it, the night before. All these agreements were predicated up on money from Percy Foreman's view and from my view, it was predicated upon -- my legal position. So -- -294-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: But you wouldn't have been necessarily willing that day in court to talk in detail about the story about Raoul and your various travels as you have here today. RAY: Well it would depend on the judge, what he would have asked me. I know I would have went into contract. I would have probably told him that if he had gotten me on the stand and I'd have probably denied actually shooting Dr. King and I don't -- I don't think the judge wanted -- he had everything all wrapped up and he -- he didn't want to get into it. I think the record indicates that the judge had no -- had no -- inclination to get into it. But I -- I should say in fairness to the judge that the judge didn't know about all these contracts. RATHER: The book contracts. RAY: Yes, and later when I got to prison, I wrote him about 'em and filed a motion for a new trial, it was my understanding that he was going to reverse it. Because he'd been kept in the dark about these contracts. And because of this I further understand from several sources that the Governor of Tennessee then sent the state highway police to see Governor Bell and offer him the next Appeals Court Judgeship. But he turned it down. RATHER: So he wouldn't pursue your case. -295-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Yes. Where he -- where he wouldn't reverse it. But I think the judge turned it down. I think his -- I think his family would confirm that, because I understand they're -- they think the establishment has hounded him into premature death. RATHER: Let me again turn the page and go back to a subject we discussed before, but I would like to discuss with you in some detail. Bluntly put, it's this, where did you get the money? RAY: Well, I suppose I got a certain amount -- I didn't -- I never got a large sum of money at one time. I think two thousand dollars is the most that ever came across at one time. And I got this off the individual -- this Raoul, alias whatever you want to call him, but I've accounted for most of it. Well it's almost impossible to account for money you said somebody give it to you. But I've accounted for it -- my expenditures, expenditors (?) on the various -- buying things and living. RATHER: But from Raoul, from the time you met him in Canada -- your first trip to Canada -- before the King killing, until after your arrest in London, how much money would you say in round figures did you get from Raoul? RAY: I -- I figured up how much I spend between -- when -296-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) I left Missouri prison I had about two hundred fifty dollars. I was employed in this restaurant in Winetka Illinois and I -- I think I -- wages there were about a thousand dollars. All together I spent I think it was between nine hundred -- nine thousand five hundred and ten thousand dollars. So -- RATHER: This is from the time you escaped from the Missouri prison in April of 1967 to the time of your arrest in London after the King killing in 1968, you estimate you spent between ninety five hundred and ten thousand dollars. RAY: It has to be somewhere in between there. Yes. RATHER: Again the question, where did you get that kind of money? RAY: Well, as I mentioned I got -- the first time I get seventeen hundred dollars I believe for a crossing the border in Detroit. RATHER: This is what Raoul gave you for that smuggling job. RAY: In Mexico in one -- one incidence I got two thousand and New Orleans one time I got five hundred and I -- I did commit one robbery in Canada. That was a house of ill fame. I guess -297-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) you call it, a gambling house, and I think I got sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars there and -- but I don't think there'd be any problem in accounting for the money. The Justice Department I think has come up with fifteen thousand. I think some book writers have come up with seven, but I can almost document every nickel I spent. RATHER: So it's your contention to answer the question where did you get the money is that you got a larger share of it from Raoul for various smuggling jobs in Canada to the United States, United States to Mexico and then once a payment in New Orleans the rest you got mostly from a hold up and various odd jobs. RAY: Yes, well, I think where the Justice Department originally made the mistake -- they assumed as soon as I got out of prison -- that I'd started committing crimes. And actually I went to work. The only way the Justice Department ever found out that I was working is that I told Bradford -- William Bradford Healey and he told the FBI. But I think after they found out that I was working then they scaled down or scaled up the amount of money I spent. SOUND TAKE 10 RATHER: On the subject of money, Mr. Ray, when you were in California, this was roughly around November of 1967, after you'd come from Mexico back into California. -298-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Right. RATHER: You had no surgery, went to bartending school, had dancing lessons, how did you finance all of that RAY: Well that was money I had when I come out of Mexico. I got two thousand when I came out. And I went to New Orleans once and got five hundred. The plastic surgery -- at that time I was -- I was working on some type of project to get (indistinct) seamless paper and there's certain thing that shows up in the picture that doesn't show up when your speaking to someone face to face. I think it's your nose and your ears. And I was -- I was -- my original intent when I got out there was try to get some merchant seamens papers by going -- going to the Coast Guard and suing an assumed name. And that's how come -- but that really didn't cost too much money. RATHER: Now in December 1967, you went from California to New Orleans. You later went back to California, but in December 1967 you went from California to New Orleans. You made a telephone call in New Orleans that as far as I know you've never been willing to talk about. To whom was that call made? RAY: We it -- it was supposed to be the individual. I called him from New Orleans to have a meeting in a tavern. RATHER: Raoul? -299-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Yes. And -- but -- now on this protecting the telephone number, I think -- we haven't investigated but I couldn't remember it all. I remember dialing the last four numbers then we checked through all the first three and -- I'm skeptical -- I don't want to get in this libel area again and say something that may be embarrasing to -- diservice some group or organizations. That was the big -- the number about the -- the King association with the -- Arab and things like that. Now I don't know if -- I think Andy Young or someone would be better prepared to answer this questions like that. RATHER: Excuse me, the telephone number -- CAMERA ROLL 10 SOUND TAKE 11 RATHER: I want to pick up there and again, I -- I'm not eager to get into a libel suit either, but the responsibility -- RAY: No, I mean libel someone else. RATHER: But you had some reason to believe that that telephone number or a telephone number that you used for a contact in the New Orleans area might have been -- what? RAY: Well now the -- the people investigated for me, they mentioned the fact that the individual might -300-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) have been involved in some type of -- this Arab-Palestine conflict. RATHER: Trying to make a connection between the Palestinian and Martin Luther King organization. RAY: Well, he -- he -- I think that the representation he was -- he intended like Vietnam to support the Arab cause. But that's -- that has never been gone into in any depth. It might be misleading or it might not, but -- but that's one of the problems with -- within the case. You -- you can't really investigate anything you did if you can't get the subpeona to find out just what -- you know, find out just what's what or who's who or -- RATHER: Again, is that one of the leads you would like to be pursued, the possibility that Martin Luther King's organization -- someone in his organization making contact with the Palestinians for an alliance? RAY: I -- I -- I -- that was the impression that I got from the party that delivered me the information. After I delivered him the -- the information. But like I say, I'm not the best -- I'm just telling you what I know. I'm not the best judge of that. I'm sure that some of -- UN Ambassador Andrew Young or someone like that would know something like that more than me, could, you squash it one way or the other. -301-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: Did you ever have any indication that Raoul or anyone connected with him was connected with any such movement as that? RAY: No, there was never any political -- of course anyone would'd discuss polits -- politics and criminal operations anyway, but I've never -- there was never any political -- anything to be connected with political. It was always money and things like that -- forged passports and the same thing that I'd always been involved in, except on a more sophisticated scale. RATHER: Let me carry on through with a couple of things from your oddesy that I want to try to clean up. Now after going from California to New Orleans in December of 1967, then still in December of 1967 you returned to California from New Orleans. RAY: Yes. RATHER: And you stayed in California until March of 1968. Question -- during this time were you as anti-conspiratorialists maintain, just hanging around, just wandering, or were you, as conspiracy believers think, being guided around, told where to go during this period? RAY: I don't think either one. I did go to New Orleans by request. Nobody ever ordered me to do anything. It was always request with the promise of hooked on the end of it. But in -- there was a definite -302-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) purpose in California, because it was on the coast, and I was trying to make some arrangements for Merchant Marines, some type of papers to get out of there. And of course I was going to San Francisco, to make some type of arrangements to get Coast Guard papers or whatever it is you use to -- RATHER: When you left California in March of 1968, to go back through Louisiana and eventually wind up in Atlanta, did you not leave a forwarding address in Atlanta at that time? RAY: When I -- RATHER: When you left California. RAY: Run that by me again, when I RATHER: This -- we're now in March 1968 -- RAY: Yes. RATHER: Roughly a month before the Martin Luther King killing. You left California and were coming back to the deep south. The question is whether you left a forwarding address in California for Atlanta. -303-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: I think -- let's see -- when I left -- no, I -- I -- I can say with almost certainty under oath that I didn't leave no forwarding address. RATHER: You were coming back to the deep south -- why? RAY: Well, that was on request. The New Orleans, but there was never -- in fact I never -- I never knew I was going to Atlanta until I arrived in Birmingham and there was no forwarding address and of course -- that would be very damaging against me, but I'm -- I'm just a hundred -- ninety nine percent positive there was no -- no forwarding address. If I would have left it anywhere, it would have been Birmingham, 'cause that's where I had my identification. RATHER: This is the reason I ask because -- I do want to get this part of the story as straight as I can. I realize you're operating on your own memory and recollection. RAY: I'm -- I'm -- I'm certain that. RATHER: You were asked by Raoul to come back to New Orleans from California. RAY: Yes. -304-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: In March of sixty eight, did he say why? RAY: Well I assumed it was the same reason that -- that he mentioned to me in December. It was some type of gun operation in Mexico. But there was never any specifics on the telephone or -- or on -- in writing. In fact there was never very much of anything in writing. RATHER: Did he ever mention to you the possibility of assassination or hit man operation? RAY: No, I don't -- that would have been -- that would have been kind of out of my league. I -- I don't -- I don't really think I have the constitution for all that type of stuff. I don't say that as a virtue, actually it's -- might be a handicap in this type of society. But I don't -- RATHER: On the way back to Alabama and Atlanta from California, this was in March of 1968, you stopped in New Orleans -- RAY: In -- Yes, I went -- I went -- I took some -- I think I took some -- now that's in March right? RATHER: March of sixty eight. RAY: Yes, I took some clothing down there. To a lady. -305-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) But I was supposed to meet the other party. RATHER: You were supposed to meet Raoul. RAY: Yes, but -- I also told this -- some -- oh, -- barmaid in a tavern there that I'd stopped by there and delivered some stuff for her. Because I was going through there and I sub -- subsequently delivered the material and that was it. RATHER: My question is did you actually meet Raoul in New Orleans. RAY: No, there was no meeting there. I -- there was a telephone call, but it was transferred to Birmingham. RATHER: He was in Birmingham at that time. RAY: He was on the way there somewheres. RATHER: Did you go from New Orleans to Birmingham by way of Selma? RAY: Ah, -- yes, I went through Selma. I found out later from William Bradford Healey that I was there and I discussed with Arthur Haynes and -- I went through through Selma. -306-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: The reason I'm asking this and I'm sure you must be aware of this, is that there is a school of thought that you decided in Los Angeles that you were going to kill Martin Luther King, that he had been out there and that you'd gotten angry at seeing him on the television and made up your mind you were going to go to the deep south and stalk him and did in fact stalk him in Selma and finally caught up with him in Memphis and killed him. You know that theory. RAY: Yes, I -- I -- I read it, yes. William Bradford Hewitt. et cetera. RATHER: Is that true? RAY: No, that's not true. Selma -- I got there, I think -- I -- I know now I was there 'cause I've checked it out, but I got there about dark and I checked in the motel and stayed there one night and left. Actually the reason I even come through that particular town was that -- when I left New Orleans, I think I got on the wrong road. In Alabama, the roads down there are -- there are not too many superhighways. And -- and I got off on the -- I believe a secondary road and -- I got in Selma about seven or eight o'clock, I think. Checked in there and left the next morning. And went on into Birmingham. RATHER: So you were not stalking Dr. Martin Luther King at that time? -307-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: I never stalked -- no, that's ridiculous, they -- they have that in California and everything. Of course I lived there -- I stayed there five months and of course just because an individual happens to come in town doesn't mean that -- another individual stalking him, because I was there before he was. That would be like saying he was stalking me or something. RATHER: You say you arrived in Atlanta by way of New Orleans and Selma from California, March twenty fourth, 1968. RAY: I'm not -- I think it's about that -- I think that's about the correct date. RATHER: You were in Atlanta four days? RAY: No, I think I was there about -- approximately seven because I paid -- I paid rent twice. (overtalk) I thought I was going to be there for longer and I paid in advance. RATHER: All right, but you were guided -- given instructions during that time -- during the time that you were in Atlanta, four days to a week. RAY: Yes, I was told once when we went there, we rented this room, me and this individual called Raoul, we both rented it but the -- the landlord was -- passed out, had been drinking, so we said a few words to him and I told him I -- he told me -- he -308-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) -- he promised me a room so I told Raoul that I'd go ahead and get a room and if I didn't why -- stay in here with the landlord or something. We subsequently he -- he finally got sobered up and he sent me right next door. He -- he owned the place, and I stayed there. I think I stayed there seven days. I could be wrong but I think -- RATHER: Well, my point, during that period though, you were in contact with Raoul and he was more or less guiding your movements. RAY: No. We -- we -- I -- I never seen him but once that time and it was the next day and we made some kind of arrangement where he could get in the door, the place I was staying in, there wasn't -- I seen them get in these places all the time, there wasn't no -- you couldn't get the -- you couldn't get in the -- front door or something. Because I was in the back, so I made arrangements to leave the back door open and so if I ever got a visitor they could just come in and see me. RATHER: You said that you did see Raoul during that period though, and he discussed gun running with you during that period. RAY: Yeah, I was -- I was almost certain at that time when I made Birmingham that -- tat -- that -- that would be what it was. -309-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: Did he mention Cuba during that period? RAY: No -- the only mention of Cuba was in the -- was in New Orleans in nineteen -- 1967. RATHER: Right. Is there any corroberation that you can think of -- any possible proof, any evidence that we don't know of, that you actually associated with this man Raoul? RAY: No, except what I told attorneys -- CAMERA ROLL 11 SOUND 12 RATHER: Is there any corroboration anywhere, any proof, any possible evidence, particularly that hasn't been known before that might conceivably support this story of Raoul? RAY: Well other than my testimony, I believe there was only two pieces of evidence that I can think of. And that's Percy Foreman deposition testimony in the 1974 Habeus Corpus hearing in Memphis. Now he refers to phone numbers, disconnected phones, tabs, and all that. And he implies that he got them all somewhere else, but I -- I confirmed them. The only other evidence that -- I made some notes while I was in jail so I could remember what -- what -- what I remembered, and I'd written them all down on the -- on a money slip, a jail you know, they send you a money slip, you get money and they give you a slip, you sign for it. So I -310-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) kept -- tried to keep these phone numbers, I'd write them down backwards on the thing -- and address and things and I kept that. Well I still got that. I don't have -- don't think I have the original copy but I get a xerox of it and I think Jerry has the original copy. He said somebody knocked him in the head in St. Louis in 1971 and he lost the original. But anyway, I -- RATHER: That's your brother Jerry. RAY: Yes. But I did keep a xerox of it, and I think it's file in some court now, but it's wrote down in code more or less, so it's be difficult for anyone to interpret it except me. RATHER: This is what I have to ask you and want to ask you. Again head to head and eye to eye, man to man, are you absolutely certain Raoul existed? There was such a person. RAY: I'm -- I'm absolutely exist -- I'm certain he existed person, but I'm not certain about the name or anything like that. But there's no question that -- in my mind at least that he did exist and -- I think if -- if we could ever get all the information from the Justice Department and things like that, out on the table -- I'm not talking about publicizing and embarassing anyone. I think if my attorney or someone could go over them with it, well they could more or less see -- they could make all the connections. -311-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) But I don't -- I don't see how you could ever establish anything if they keep -- you know -- locking up evidence and voiding subpeonas and things like that. RATHER: You have to know. How many people who hear you tell this story will say to themselves, that is a cock and bull story if ever I heard one. RAY: Yeah, yeah. RATHER: That James Earl Ray is gotten himself in a world of trouble, he's trying to concoct some story that will help him out of it, and this Raoul never existed and that thing's fantasy from beginning to end. RAY: I think so. I think -- I have -- I have -- based on my background, the -- you know, in jails and out, I think people'd be skeptical of anything I testified to, to the media. But I think equally, people are skeptical of the printed -- printed press communication industry, especially these large Eastern publishing companies. And they -- they haven't seen to give them any more credence than they give me. I think the only -- only way to resolve this is maybe not even a criminal trial for me, maybe a civil trial, where the subpeona is, you know, nationwide, it's not some judge, arbitrarily decides that the fifty mile limit (?) and I think -- I believe -- I think any criminal defendent -- if he's involved in -312-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) something, the crime is sort of complicated and things like that. I don't think you can take a witness stand and make up a whole story, because someway or another, hey shoot you down and you know, ruin your credibility. But I think -- as lawyers who have contacted Griffin Bell, if he wants to examine the case, some type of judicial proceedings, either a civil case, I don't want to commit the lawyer now, because he might decide something else. He -- to a civil proceedings or a criminal proceedings. But -- RATHER: You'd be willing to go through that? RAY: I've always been willing. I -- I think we filed six or eight civil cases, but they're dismissed before you can get the subpeona. They -- RATHER: Let me see if I understand you here. That you're saying, all right, you understand the people are skeptical, perhaps even cynical about your story about Raoul and -- RAY: Yes. RATHER: ... all of this. But that you're convinced that if you could put yourself under oath, and put other people under oath, with wide ranging subpoena powers, that it would be proven that Raoul did exist? -313-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Ah -- I don't know -- this certain individual -- I think -- I think it'd be proven that someone did exist -- whether it's that particular name or not. I think I could have my previous testimony corroberated. But -- RATHER: That someone did exist and that he did -- finance your smuggling. RAY: Oh, I think it's definite. The prosecution -- they -- they confirmed these subpeonas, but they do it in sort of -- offhanded manner, you know, they -- they make some type of remark -- here I knew in Memphis in 1974, and -- but they'll never -- they'll never pursue the matter. RATHER: You think a civil court trial would probably be the best form as far as your concerned to get to the bottom of this. RAY: Well -- the -- the disadvantage of a civil court trial would be that I couldn't get no -- relief unless it generates some kind of -- publicity. And the point is that -- there's certain people don't have too much -- they don't have no influence with -- with the -- particularly the printed press, publishing companies. I'm -- especially working class whites and Black Muslims and anti-communist and pro-communist Cubans. I know -- I know that from my personal experience. And by who they wanted to put the heat on when I was in Memphis. So I think -- if -- if we did have -314-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) a civil trial, I don't know -- I think you could get -- like I say, I think you could get all the facts out, but I don't think it -- I don't -- I can't see how it would benefit me any. RATHER: Perhaps in the long run if all the facts came out. RAY: Well, there's a possibility. Well I think that may be one -- one reason why the civil suits are always dismissed. Because -- I don't know how much you know about law, but whenever you file a civil suit against anyone, he -- he automatically has a right to impose and take sworn statements from you. If you refuse, well then you can be held in contempt or -- your credibility is gone. In all the suits that we filed, -- and I guess there's six or seven -- plus I've been sued two or three times, no one has ever took my deposition or interrogatories. And it seems like always so-called really intelligent lawyers, which they are, and they would -- you know -- go into all these things. But they won't RATHER: That strikes you as strange that hasn't happened. RAY: It does. I've never been to -- John J. Jooker, he asked me a few questions, I should take back what I said a while ago, but he never -- they were -- they were strictly limited to defending Percy Foreman in a lawsuit. -315-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: I understand. After the King shooting, you drove a white Mustang to Atlanta, then the next day you took the bus and eventually one train I think and would up in Toronto. RAY: Yes. Correct. RATHER: Now in Toronto within only two days, you had two aliases. Raymond Snead and Paul Bridgman. How did you get those aliases? RAY: I got those aliases from the newspaper office, from the films. RATHER: Did you go into the newspaper office or to the library? RAY: I guess it was the library. They put films in the machine and you check 'em out. RATHER: Here's the problem that many people I've talked to have with that. First of all, they say that you've told conflicting stories about how you got those names. Have you in fact told conflicting stories about those -- RAY: No. I've written -- everything I've -- all my testimony, including the at first one, I've always written down on paper. And of course now Foreman, -316-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) he's -- he claims HE LOST what I wrote down. But all the succeeding attorneys, I've always written down everything on paper. And -- what is the other story that I was suppose to -- or do you recall. RATHER: Well, among other things it was -- one time you told the story that you went to the newspaper office, the next time you told the story that you went to a library in Toronto to get these names. That was one conflict. RAY: No, it was definitely a newspaper, because they put these -- they put these films -- there are films or something -- I guess you'd know more about it than I would. RATHER: Microfilms. RAY: Yes. And they -- you -- you -- you -- the secretary puts them on this thing and you -- you can run through the whole newspapers. RATHER: Let me tell you what I'm getting at here and let me talk about now my own skepticism. I'd like to think I'm not cynical, but as a professional I am skeptical. RAY: Yes. -317-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: That the names Galt, Williard, these were earlier aliases of yours, that you got in Canada on the first trip, Snead and Bridgeman, are all four relatively similarly looking white males, they all lived in the same suburb of Toronto, in the Scarboro suburb. Now it strikes me that the probability of finding aliases that good, that fitting and all from the same neighborhood on such short notice, is so small to be the point of impossibility, and it seems to me, an outsider, that perhaps you were in contact with an alias ring someone who supplied just the right aliases for just the right people. RAY: No, no that's not correct. I mean it -- it might be to my disadvantage if I came up with some -- some story about involving some type of counterfeiting ring, but that -- that really wasn't -- that really wasn't what it was. I think -- I think that was a coincidence. I did look for people that were near my age in the -- of course the information on the newspapers, it gives you -- it gives the wife -- I think the mothers name, or nee, whatever nee means, but it doesn't give nationality or race or anything like that. But in Canada you make certain assumptions because the people born there thirty years -- RATHER: But the point is that you did it the way you claim to have done it. RAY: That's exactly the way I did it and -- see -- I think there's a tendency to make mysteries out of things like this and of course it is skeptical -318-  [View JPEG scan of this page] because the people did favor me, but I think -- I think in this case the things that the -- that are more unexplainable is for instance, Memphis, when -- shortly after Dr. King was shot someone went on -- someone went on the citizens band radio and misled the police -- had them go in another area, I think another example is -- CAMERA ROLL 12 SOUND TAKE 13 RATHER: You were saying another example of what you thought was a more important question. RAY: Well I think another example was that there's been reports now -- I'm pretty sure they've been corroberated, somebody got a drivers license under my name in Birmingham a certain date when I was living in California. It would have been impossible for me to do it. I think -- RATHER: Would you say that that was Raoul who did that? RAY: Raoul didn't have no idea who it was, but I think -- someone called the captain of the state police up in Alabama and requested a drivers license and he gave it to him. RATHER: You managed to get two birth certificates within two days in Toronto. To back up those aliases. Then within two weeks you got a passport under the name of Snead. It simply doesn't stand to reason to me that you could have done all that -319-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: (CONT) by yourself. RAY: Well yes, I did -- I did that -- that part there was -- I'll have to take full blame for it. Because -- there's not too much trouble getting a passport in Canada. Contrary to published reports, I didn't learn this in penitentiary, I just picked it up in Canada by making inquiries and things, but I think -- the passport, I think it cost -- not the passport, but the gift certificate, cost two dollars, just a small thing. RATHER: It was easy to get. RAY: It's not too much -- if you got the correct information and you can send two dollars into the registrar generals office and you -- you say you want it -- RATHER: In some -- an awful lot of people, including myself, find themselves thinking, over and over again, no one man who had by his own acknowledgement never been to Memphis before, could have under circumstances immediately following Dr. Martin Luther King's killing, no one man could have gotten out of Memphis, gotten back to Atlanta and made his way all the way to Canada, gotten down to England, down to Portugal, and back to London on his own. -320-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Well, I don't know -- what -- what's the specific -- is there any specific -- RATHER: Well, it's a long way to run under very tough circumstances, world wide alert out, for a killer. How could you do it? RAY: Well I think -- I think that -- the first part's easy to explain, and I think the -- the all points bulletin was in Tennessee. They -- they didn't put an all points bulletin out in all -- in other states, -- actually -- actually the -- the actions in Memphis -- the commissioner, he's a former FBI man, Mr. Hollerman, I believe his name is, he's -- he's a very -- well, (indistinct) for a lack of a better word, but there was never no all points bulletin put out except in -- in -- in Tennessee. RATHER: The FBI didn't put out a nationwide bulletin immediately? RAY: No, I heard Memphis did, Memphis -- because you can't compartmentalize these things. I think Mr. Hollerman, he's twenty five years in the FBI, so I imagine he works very close with them. RATHER: Let me ask you about the FBI. Have you ever at any time under any circumstances, been an informer for the FBI. -321-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: No, I've never been an informer for not only the FBI, for anyone else. And if I ever go in front of any committee or anything, of course it's been -- that's been -- there's not been -- there's never been alleged, but it's been alleged I cooperated somewhere, but if I ever go up in front of a committee or get under oath again, I want to get in this in some detail, because -- that's about the worse thing you can -- you know, allege against someone. From -- from my standpoint. RATHER: But you never had anything to do with them other then they cased you or gathered evidence against you. RAY: I never even talked to an FBI agent. Except one time and that was in -- years ago in Hanibal, and he called me in the room and I didn't have no federal charges on me, and he asked me for -- he asked everybody, in case if I ever got out, would I consider helping him in some way. And I told him I wasn't interested in it. But actually, as far as the FBI concern on this case, I think they're more or less the spear carriers. I think it's -- I don't think they do too much of anything without the -- the acquiescence or the approval of the Justice Department. Because I remember -- I remember seeing -- I think some reels on CBS about a year ago, you see these various Attorney Generals, Ramsey Clark and Mr. Nicholas Easenback there, don't recognize their own initials for wire taps and all that, so -- of course they're lawyers -322-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) and they're more smooth in these operations I think than the FBI are -- is. RATHER: Let me tell you what I'm driving at when I ask you whether you'd ever had any involvement with the FBI. RAY: Yes. RATHER: I know from your brother Jerry, how strongly you feel about that. Of denying that. But Andrew Young, now the UN Ambassador who was of course as close as anyone to Dr. Martin Luther King, has said, and I quote, I'm not saying that Dr. King's assassination was a contract job, I'm saying that there was a climate created, an atmosphere created that gave the impression that Martin Luther King was a danger to Democracy and to America and that somebody might be doing the director, meaning the FBI director, a great favor or be doing the nation a great favor by getting rid of him. Meaning Dr. King. RAY: Well, first I don't think -- I don't -- I doubt very much -- first I'm certain the FBI wouldn't ever kill him themselves. You know, the agents. That would be a -- they just don't to things like that -- intelligence agents don't. I think you read the -- what little bit I follow the news in the paper, like the CIA, that's just an expanded FBI, they usually pay the local -- the local population. I think there's a -323-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) story just recently, they paid King -- some -- King Hussain I believe it was, of Jordan, a million dollars a year. Well I assume they don't pay anyone a million dollars a year just to have parties on that much, cause you couldn't spend that much, so I assume it's -- they use that money to get rid of people that disagrees with United States policy. So I think that applies the same way to the FBI. I doubt very much if they would ever -- sell anyone outside the law, but I think they might -- they have -- they have enormous informer network, I suppose. From what I read, and they might let someone do that but -- you know, lighten up on security or something. RATHER: Personal opinion. Could Raoul have been an FBI informer or CIA contact of some kind? RAY: I -- no, I -- I -- I'm more inclined to think if -- if the FBI or the Justice Department, someone like that, had anything involved, they would -- it's been charged by Mark Lane (?) what -- what he calls security stripping, and I think -- I think this happened on the day Dr. King was shot, I understand that two -- some black policemen was guarding him and someone sent -- who's the people that guards the President -- RATHER: Secret Service? RAY: Secret Service down there and they told him that -324-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) someone was going to murder the policeman. That don't make much sense. So they took the police man off to question him for three days and during this time the killing took place and his name was Redman, I think. I read -- I read several articles about it. But I don't think they do anything so crude as -- unless it was just a (indistinct) case. RATHER: I want to get back to the money for a minute if I may. You know the theory which is -- true it may not be, widely believed it is, that you dealt in all kinds of businesses when you were in prison in Missouri. And managed to get out a good deal of money. Can we talk about that for a while. First of all, did you use drugs when you were in prison in Missouri? RAY: I've never used any kind of -- what you call hard narcotics. That's cocaine, heroin. Of course everybody in the penitentiary at one time another takes tranquillizers, something of that nature. But I've never dealt in any drugs, I've never taken any, 'cause I've seen what it does to your health, you got to be -- RATHER: What about emphatemines. RAY: No, they had something called -- something similar to that, they get prescriptions, RATHER: Well my point is -- -325-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (overtalk) while you're on the subject, there was considerable amphetamines in the -- in the prison. I wouldn't say considerable, but they was in there and I don't want to get -- I don't want to discuss prison -- prison and all that, and -- but -- there are certain things goes on in prison that goes on the outside, it's only natural. But there's no -- things don't get out of hand, -- I think you're referring -- the McMillian book, that's nonsense there. There was nothing like that. RATHER: That's exactly what I was referring to, that George McMillian in his new book of his, just lays out a whole -- RAY: Yeah. RATHER. He says its more than a theory. He thinks it's documented evidence that you dealt not only in -- in drugs in the Missouri state prison, but in other things, and managed to build up on the outside a rather large amount of cash which allowed you to run where you had to. RAY: See, you have to understand Missouri prison when I was there -- you made a dollar and a half a month for -- for work. And of course in prison there -- there's a certain amount of overhead. You know -- you have to buy soap, stamps, things like that. They don't give -- they don't give that -326-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) away and you have to make money on the outside to support those things. But you don't make no thousand dollars a month or anything like that, 'cause that -- that just don't happen. You might make fifteen or twenty dollars a month, but you can't send that out. You -- you have to leave that inside. RATHER: It's my understanding his theory is that you spent between eight and ten thousand dollars running, and it would have been very easy for you to make a thousand dollars a year in jail, and you were in jail, in prison, between seven and eight years. RAY: I think that would be impossible. They have -- they have the entire list of money I sent out. The most money I ever sent out was fifty dollars, I think to my brother one time and that was kind of indirectly, I sent a lawyer a hundred dollars and told him to give my brother fifty, something. But it's a very small amount of money and -- he says that I was dealing with guards. Well that's nonsense. I never had any dealings with the guards. But on the other -- the more specifically, I think -- on the -- on the money part, I just don't -- I don't see how you could -- accumulate that much money. RATHER: It just isn't true. RAY: Well, not it's -- there's no -- there's no -- it's -327-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) just totally false. And I think the commissioner of Missouri -- I think his name is Camp, and he said it's totally false and it's -- RATHER: What about the charge that you're a racist. Always have been. RAY: No, I -- I think -- well I think that's Time -- that accusation's been in Time -- Time Magazine, not -- not -- under their definition, of racist, I -- I most likely am. Most likely am. But -- that's -- I think their term -- SOUND ROLL 4 CAMERA ROLL 13 SOUND TAKE 14 RATHER: I want to ask that question again if I may. Are you a racist? RAY: Well, as I mentioned, I think I would be under the definition that Time Magazine and (indistinct) gives, because I think they're the one -- they're the one -- person made the accusation. But -- but I think that's mostly pretense. What they're -- they more or less -- that's economic reasons -- as far as my personal -- feelings about it, these various other ethnic groups and things, they're just here and I'm here. I think it'd be -- I don't think I could ever pretend to -- have the same -- take the same position that say, Time Magazine or -- say, George McMillian, because -- -328-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) what I'm concerned about is explaining something to the jury. If I went before a jury and -- and you know, tried to pretend that I spent a life time as a humanitarian ministering to the poor and all that stuff, they'd know I was either crazy or lying, so -- I think as far as the -- I don't know what they're specifically thinking about, some type of segregation or anything. There's a lot -- a lot of self segregation in the United States. I think -- I think a good example is probably in the federal prisons. I think if you go in there you'll see -- Mexican Americans associating together, blacks and -- and the whites and even people from Texas, and I don't say that with -- RATHER: No, but what we're driving at is (overtalk) deeper than that. RAY: You're talking about -- RATHER: You hated black people, always hated black people, that's -- RAY: Well I think that's nonsense. I think -- I usually -- judge someone -- on the -- you know, the individual person. But -- but I think there is an instinctive tendency to associate with people you have something in common with, background and things like that. I don't -- I don't think that's -- means you're plotting to kill the other person or anything like that, but it's just -- it's an inconsequental thing. When -329-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) I -- RATHER: By your own definition, are you a racist? RAY: No -- not -- not in my own definition. But I don't like to get these words -- if I ever go to trial or something like that, I don't want to get -- I don't want to get definitions mixed up and with slogans and things like that. I don't want to be -- specific, just what they -- you now, just what they were talking about and in their definition of those things. RATHER: For example, George MacMillian the author, alleges that you said and scribbled Martin Luther Coon, quote, unquote. RAY: Well see, that's ignorant. I wouldn't refer to one -- to anyone like that even if I was opposed to them. But the -- the -- the point is I think George McMillan, he's -- he's made a statement that I used to make all these comments while watching TV in the prisons. But -- in Missouri prison, but the fact is there was no TV's in there while I was in there, so that's just -- just a story that he's made up to sell a book, I suppose. Make a point for the Justice Department. RATHER: Would it be too strong to classify that as a lie? -330-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Well I consider it a hundred percent lie, 'cause -- there's just no -- no basis for fact in it. I think it'd be substantiated by anyone who -- who wanted to check it with the prison officials. RATHER: I'm going to throw several questions that might seem unrelated to you, just by way of cleaning up a few things. If there was a conspiracy to kill Martin Luther King, if somebody else did it, why sit here silent? Why not tell everything you know and do everything you can to find the other people. RAY: Well, I don't -- I think a lot of people have a sort of a Pollyanne view of the legal system. All you got to do is go to the prosecutor and say oh, here -- here's what it is, turn me loose and that's it. That's not the way it is. If -- if you -- if you testify to the prosecutor he'll just use what you tell him to weave it in his story. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to turn you out or anything like that. As far as me testifying, there's been opportunities ever since the plea, the second day after the plea, I think the second day after the plea is when I wrote Judge Bell and asked for a new trial. There's always been opportunities for the state to -- to depost me or ask me any questions they want to. But it has to be in judicial proceedings and -- and I don't intend to -- have some type of ex parte meeting with the prosecuting attorney or anyone else. RATHER: You want to do it in court under oath. -331-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: That would be the only place, yes. RATHER: And with others in court under oath. RAY: Yes, with the -- with the -- right to cross examine. RATHER: It's been alleged that you were a great fan and follower of Mr. Stoner, a well known segregationist in the South, and read his newspaper The Thunderbolt now is that true or not? RAY: I never read -- I never read his newspaper Thunderbolt. The first time I ever heard of Mr. Stoner was in the London England jail. That was the first time I ever heard of him or his organization. And some committee called the Patriotic Fund wrote me a letter and said they would defend me for -- I think it was nothing. And at that time I then contacted Haynes but I never seen the letter personally. I read the letter over this English barristers shoulder, and I just told him that -- that I didn't know Mr. Stoner, never heard of him and I'd go ahead and stay with Haynes. But -- RATHER: Did you or your brother Jerry make contact with a Kent Courtney, who operates what is described as an extreme right wing newspaper out of New Orleans and Baton Rouge. -332-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Yes, we did. After -- after -- after the guilty plea -- Haynes -- Haynes -- Arthur Haynes, the first attorney that defended me, it's hit theory and he -- he made -- he had contacts in the FBI and everything, that the Communist had involved -- were responsible for the crime because they wanted to -- well in other words they couldn't use Dr. King any more or -- they wanted to create trouble in the United States. Now Haynes had a lot of names and everything like that and I can't remember all he discussed -- he had me about convinced that they was. So consequently while I was in jail, I come across something somewhere where this Kent Courtney was from New Orleans and he -- he was specializing in communism. So when -- when he -- when I went down to -- to the prison, I asked Jerry to go down and see him -- RATHER: Your brother. RAY: Yes, plus, he was supposed to check on some other stuff down -- some phone numbers or something -- I asked him to see this Kent Courtney. But that's -- RATHER: So, it was in that context that he say him. RAY: That was the context, yes. RATHER: Mr. Ray, what do you think more than any other thing shaped your life? -333-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: I don't -- I just can't -- I can't answer -- it's difficult to answer -- those types of questions. I suppose it's heredity and -- and environment and chance in a certain sense. I think chance plays quite a bit of -- quite a bit in it, but I wouldn't say it's -- RATHER: Would you consider your life a failure? RAY: Well I wouldn't if I -- if I -- if I would have stayed in Canada the first time and perhaps went to Australia, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't exactly have considered it a failure, but -- I don't consider it one way or the other, just -- I'm just here and that's it, more or less. RATHER: How about influential people in your life? Who would you say is -- was the most influential person in your life? RAY: That's very difficult, say who -- you mean a family member or -- RATHER: I was thinking perhaps of Uncle Earl or your Aunt Mabel Fuller, or perhaps Mom Mayer. RAY: Well I've always been pretty close to all the family members, so I can't -- pick out one and say I was more influenced by them than the other ones. -334-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: I want to ask you about Mom Mayer. Did she sign an affidavit in Alton Illinois saying that you carried a picture of Adolph Hitler in the 1940's? RAY: No, I don't think she ever said that. I -- RATHER: Did you ever carry such a picture? RAY: No, that's nonsense. I think what she did, I got in jail there one time, and I think she -- she was very prejudice against Germans, and the place I worked I think about seventy percent of them were Germans. And she -- I think -- I got a burglary charge and I think she went down here and told them -- these people were responsible for me being in jail. Or something. RATHER: You know one reason I ask you this is the -- again the author George McMillian lays out a whole scenario in which you went around giving the Heil Hitler salute, carrying a picture of Adolf Hitler. Is there any -- of that true. RAY: No, that's -- that's just -- well that's just nonsense. I mean -- that's the same with the remark he made about Martin Luther King, coon, you know, even if you do think along those lines, you wouldn't be expressing yourself like that, 'cause -- it'd be kind of ridiculous. Someone would have to be a clown. -335-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: What about the theory that you were indeed heavily into amphetamines and that you were high on amphetamines the day Martin Luther King was killed. RAY: Well, I don't know. I was -- I was on the street fourteen months during escape time. And I never -- I've never taken -- I don't think I ever took a pill -- I had pneumonia once or something, something like that, that's the only time, -- that was in Birmingham in nineteen, I believe that was September, but there was never any drugs. I never took any amphetamines on the street. One time period. As I can remember (?) recall. RATHER: So it simply isn't true. RAY: That's just totally -- well I don't McMillian has even alleged that. But that's totally false. RATHER: You didn't mainline amphetamines. However that's done. RAY: No, you -- you can test on anybody and see if they did that, because usually your veins dry up and it leaves marks on -- and I've been thoroughly examined and all that stuff. Fact is, right after I was arrested in England they -- they run various tests on me and see if I'd taken any -336-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) drugs and that stuff stays in your system so apparently since the Justice Department's kept it quiet, there's -- they came out negative. RATHER: Do you fear for your life in prison or have you ever feared for your life in prison. RAY: No, no, I've never feared for my life in prison. Of course, there's a lot of violence and things like that, but usually a lot of people brings that on themselves. RATHER: I was thinking of someone out to get you because you had killed Dr. King, or to silence you for what you may know. RAY: Well most people in prison, they -- they're more conversant with the legal system than the average person on the street. So consequently they don't accept as fact everything the Justice Department or the police say. They're skeptical, especially when they see things trying to be covered up and things like that. So that -- that's really never been a problem. RATHER: So you really never had a problem. RAY: No, there's never been no problem. They -- they use that to keep me in segregation, but I don't -337-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) think there was never a problem in that area. RATHER: Let me read to you just very quickly, and have you respond briefly if you will, your own opinion, these are various theories that have been put forward to me on the assassination case over the years. As to why it was done. One, un-named money interests. CAMERA ROLL 14 SOUND TAKE 15 RATHER: I want to run past you various theories that have been put to me as a reporter working on this assassination case for a good many years. And get your reactions to them, as theories. First, un-named money interests, were somehow responsible for Dr. King's death. They wanted to prevent Dr. King from leading his peoples march on Washington for one thing. RAY: That -- that's the theory I've heard most and the attorneys have discussed most. They say he was -- got beyond integration stage and was interested in economics. Consequently, a lot of business interests I guess -- I'm talking about large business interests, because -- consider this some type of a threat to their economic -- RATHER: You believe that? RAY: I don't -- I don't know whether it's true or not. -338-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: Anyone ever discuss that with you before the killing? RAY: No, I never -- you talking about lawyers now or somebody -- RATHER: No, I'm talking about someone on the outside. RAY: Actually I never -- I never discussed Martin Luther King with anyone. I don't think I've ever mentioned his name until I got that charge against me. RATHER: Well another of the theories is that white racists were responsible for this. Their motive for wanting to get rid of Dr. King was obvious. RAY: No I think that would be totally false, because -- you mentioned J.B. Stoner a while ago. I saw him once in Memphis jail up there and he -- he told me that -- he said whenever a race crime -- about race was committed, they always came to him or his organization, but he said -- the FBI never came close to him during that time. And I think it was their theory that -- that Dr. King's activities was actually helping them. -339-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: Three, the theory involving black militants being responsible, that Dr. King has become too non-violent for their plans and they wanted to take away leadership for their black movement. RAY: No, that's one of the two theories that I think the attorneys representing me wanted to put forward. It was either anti-communist or pro communist Cubans -- I'm not certain which -- or black militants. But -- I just -- I can't -- subscribe to that -- the type of a theory. RATHER: How about the communists. Who, so the theory goes, wanted to stir up black hatred and ferment rebellion. Fidel Castro for example, is claimed to had a special interest in this. RAY: No, I -- I doubt -- I doubt it very much. I think Arthur -- the first -- the first attorney to defend me, Arthur Haynes, had -- he got from the FBI or the Justice Department, he had various material on this. I think the only way to determine that would be to subpeona the files from the Justice Department. And those various tapes and things like that. I've seen the -- he said the FBI tried to mislead him in this area. That the Communist and black militant thing, so -- I don't know -- if they tried to mislead him, I assume he's being truthful and -- RATHER: The other theory that's so popular is that the -340-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: (CONT) CIA was somehow responsible, that it had become quote, reason of state, to silent Dr. King because of his growing opposition to the Vietnam war. RAY: As I mentioned before, I don't think the CIA silenced anyone. They probably pay someone else to do it. They haven't -- if the newspapers are telling the truth, they have these various people on their payrolls, to do things like that. RATHER: Have you ever thought about a possible connection between the Dr. King death, your situation, and the assassination of President Kennedy? RAY: Well the lawyers have discussed it, but I don't think that's valid theory at all. Because -- RATHER: You don't. RAY: I don't think you can string a bunch of homocides together, because there's different motives and different interests. Of course I'm not -- I -- I'm not privy to all these records and I'm not sophisticated to understand the -- why people does certain things. I assume whenever -- when anyone does anything, it's for economic reasons. And I -- RATHER: Do you think Dr. King was killed for economic reasons yourself? -341-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Well, maybe a com -- sometimes I guess it's a combination of things, and they all converge into one. RATHER: You know the name Cliff Andrews? RAY: Yes. RATHER: You know him? RAY: I never heard of him til I got down here. RATHER: I met Mr. Cliff Andrews. He said that he knew that the man you call Raoul did indeed exist, in fact at one time he indicated to me that the, Mr. Andrews, might -- just might be Raoul himself. Now this Mr. Andrews in this cloak and dagger meeting I had with him, laid out the following line of thought. He said that Quebec Liberation party members, those who want to separate Quebec from the rest of Canada, had an offer from some white business men in the south, for big money to get King killed. And that Raoul was the point man, so to speak for that and he enlisted your aid and that that's what happened. Now I'm asking you, do you have any reason to believe that that's story true. RAY: I don't have any reason it stall is true. The fact is, I'm -- I'm pretty sure it's false. -342-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: When I asked one of your former attorneys what your basic story was, this is what he said to me. And I quote directly. James Earl Ray would like to have credit for killing Dr. Martin Luther King, but does not want to have to pay the price. RAY: Well that sounds like Percy Foreman. Really that -- that type of conversation there is -- that's more suitable for something to entertain -- talk shows or something like that. But there's no -- that's -- someone would have to be insane to, you know, get involved -- wanting publicity and killing somebody -- wanted the publicity because -- to me it is. I -- I can't conceive of anyone -- there is people like that. But I can't conceive of anyone wanting that type of publicity. RATHER: And you didn't do it? RAY: No, I didn't do it. RATHER: When I asked Mr. Percy Foreman what he thought the motive for killing was, and as you know he thinks you did the killing, he said and I quote, self aggrandizement, self-realization. The second most fundamental instinct in human nature. Second only to self-preservation, to be a big shot. He thought he would be the biggest man in America, end of quotation. -343-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Yeah, we'll that's a -- I think first -- Percy Foreman, he also testified under oath that he never did ask me if I committed the crime. That's been documented. The other things that he's mentioned, they're more or less -- well sensational in nature. .I think -- that type of thing looks good in print and I guess the Justice Department thinks it looks good, but -- it's just alien to my thinking. I can't conceive of -- me doing something and -- under those terms you -- you're thinking about. I -- I could -- might do something similar to that under self-defense, but I couldn't -- under what you just -- read off there, about -- RATHER: Then you didn't do it. RAY: No, that's right. RATHER: Mr. Ray, for the average person, watching and listening to this in his living room, and trying to make some sense out of all the cataclysmic events we've been through, and your situation, who says to himself, you know, I -- sort of believe there was a conspiracy -- somebody else had to be involved on the other hand, the evidence against James Earl Ray is rather strong. A lot of people think this way. What's the most important thing that needs to be said to that person. From your standpoint. -344-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Well I don't know, it's difficult to answer. It's difficult to say anything to that type person. The problem we have -- the problem we have here -- I think is -- is there's -- you never can get a -- a full airing it in a court somewhere, where -- where it should be aired. It's not -- its not -- it's not to my advantage to stay in solitary confinement in jail and just let things drag out. I -- I was prepared years ago to try to get everything resolved out in the open in a courtroom or maybe if necessary even a congressional hearing. But -- then forget about it. I don't see any point in just keep writing books and talking about it and -- nothing is ever resolved. RATHER: And you're willing to do that now? RAY: I've always been willing to testify under appropriate conditions, in court or -- who knows, maybe even in a congressional committee, if -- on advise of lawyers and they make certain -- fair showings, we can get together on it. RATHER: And you're willing now? RAY: I'm perfectly willing right now, yes. RATHER: Thank you, Mr. Ray. -345-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: Thank you. RATHER: You've been very patient with us and I appreciate that. (wild track) SOUND TAKE 16 RATHER: Mr. Ray this is for the record. I want to ask you now, for the record, have you asked for or received any payment for this interview whatsoever? RAY: No, I've never asked -- I've never received money from any source for any interview. Since I've been in prison on this charge. RATHER: But I'm asking you specifically about this one for the record. RAY: No, I think I wrote and told you that I -- didn't want any -- I wasn't interested in any type of fee for it. RATHER: All right. Thank you. -346-  [View JPEG scan of this page] CAMERA ROLLS 15 W AND 14 C SOUND 16 RATHER: Mr. Ray, I think you will acknowledge that -- will you acknowledge that you have on several important points over the years told or been quoted as telling two or different stories. RAY: I may have been quoted as telling, but I never -- actually everything I've ever told the lawyers or anything has been written down on paper. So -- RATHER: What we're talking about is the credibility problem of -- of many people who would read on one occassion that, for example, that you said you'd given the rifle to Raoul at the New Rebel Motel, and they read that you said you'd given the rifle to Raoul at the DeSoto, Mississippi motel. Then they read that no, you didn't meet Raoul again until the day of the shooting and -- at the rooming house and the gun was in the trunk at that time. They read all of these conflicting stories and say, James Earl Ray has a terrific problem. RAY: Well actually, there's no -- that's mostly what some -- Percy Foreman or some book writer said. Actually what -- everything from Percy Foreman til now that I've told attorneys, I've writ -- I've written down in long hand, so -- now the only now the -- I mentioned motel. I did get that mixed up and actually it was -- wasn't until I came to prison -- until the -- until anyone -347-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RAY: (CONT) went down and investigated this motel -- this -- RATHER: But your argument is that was an honest mistake on your part. RAY: That's an honest mistake, yes. That's one of the few mistakes I think I've made in -- in what I've written to them. RATHER: Is your contention your basic story the one you wrote down for your attorneys has never changed from the first day you wrote it. RAY: Well, it's -- no, it's never changed. Well now, like I think I mentioned before. Percy Foreman said -- he's lost what I wrote down for him. The only -- now the previous attorney before that was Arthur Haynes and the way we was working that, I would write down for him, not only to him, but William Bradford Hewitt was using it to publish a story, plus get a defense together. And we never did get through all the installments on that. Haynes was dismissed before the -- before the installments run out. RATHER: But your basic contention is you don't have a credibility problem. RAY: Well, it's never been challenged in court and of course, I know there's no credibility problem. -348-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: Have you told a different story as to where you were at the actual time of the shooting? RAY: No, that. RATHER: Conflicting stories on that? RAY: No, the only one discrepency there is that when I was furnishing these installments for William Bradford Hewitt to write the articles, plus Arthur Haynes was using them for -- to prepare the case, I'd write down maybe three, two or three months time and he'd investigate it and he would write about it and publish it in Look Magazine. Now Haynes was dismissed before the last couple of installments came out and then consequently Percy Foreman had to get in. (?) But anyway, on what I told Haynes, one time we had some conflict there -- one time he was telling Hewey -- Hewey wanted to know this and that. And it was my -- I thought I had a tacit agreement with Haynes that he wouldn't give Hewey all the details of the day of the offense, because if he did, it'd you know, compromise us with the prosecution. So he come up here one day, and they asked me about -- what you going to tell Hewey about the crime. So I knew Hewey -- He's hooked up on this Klu Klux Klan thing. I said well just tell him that -- I was setting in the car, guy ran up and threw a sheet over his head, that was it. -349-  [View JPEG scan of this page] RATHER: You told a deliberate falsehood on that. RAY: Yeah, well -- in the -- it was more or less a joke. And then later on in 1974 in the evidentiary hearing, Arthur Haynes testified that I in fact did kind of jokingly tell him to tell Hewey one time that -- this story. But later on I wrote all this -- the same thing down for Foreman, legitimate testimony and I think he -- he presented it to Hewey and I believe Hewey has it now. RATHER: Why was Jimmy Hoffa so interested in reading about your case? RAY: I really can't tell. I really don't know. Inmate in here several years ago, told me, was in ________________ with Jimmy Hoffa. He told me he was very interested in the case. Of course I knew something about the teamsters connected with the case, possibly connected -- so I -- I didn't want to con -- contact Hoffa at the time because he might damage the parole. I did contact his son. I had another party contact his son, then later on, I think Bernhard Fernstabal, (?) he contacted his -- Mr. Hoffa's attorney, Ed -- Edward Bennett Williams I believe it is. But -- but I don't know what came out of it. It was -- it was just something used in the prosecution. I mean defense. It wasn't -- in other words, I wasn't trying to look -- looking into this information to use in -- some state supported project. (wild track) Next: James Earl Ray's testimony, continued. [ ParaScope ]